38 Special Wadcutter Handloading Problem!

First topic message reminder :

For the first time, I am handloading for my S&W K38(?) with 148 lead wadcutters.  Most of the loaded cases will not fully chamber.  I am seating the bullets slightly below the mouth with a slight crimp.  I am using a mixture of nickel-plated Winchester/RP/Federal brass.  The resized cases fit easily into the chambers. Any suggestions on what I am doing wrong.

LenV: "I use 4 dies. For WC I use a sizing die (1), powder feed (2), seat (3) and roll crimp (4) then the factory crimp (5) die with no crimp."

My interpretation is that LenV uses FCD just for extra test-step to proof-check resulting ammo.  In reality it is not necessary if sizing die is used correctly on step one.  However there is also technique of loading 38 Special Wad Cutter without re-sizing  cases as a first step - that would be de-priming without re-sizing (1), powder charge (2), seat (3) and factory crimp (4) for proper case sizing and crimping.  There are pros and cons with each of these methods.  Former necessitated proper case expansion on step 2 in order to avoid projectile deformation, which in turn fundamental for the accuracy of resulting ammo.  Latter necessitates proper seating procedure and projectile handling in order to avoid projectile dropping deeper into the case while feeding into the barrel.  Regardless of the method, it is very important to use brass that originally was use for loading Special Wad Cutters.  My personal preference is Remington and/or Fiocchi, - there is a simple explanation to that: at one point I bought couple of thousands of Fiocchi ammo, because if was inexpensive, and because I bought Remington Target Master, and recently Target Match ammo to shoot.  However, I'm sure there are other suitable head stamps.  
AP

To Steve, the OP:

Steve,

This thread had 50 posts, representing likely nearly 1k yr of reloading experience!   Were you able to resolve your problem(s) and produce ammo that works for you?  Inquiring minds want to know!

sharkdoctor wrote:To Steve, the OP:

Steve,

This thread had 50 posts, representing likely nearly 1k yr of reloading experience!   Were you able to resolve your problem(s) and produce ammo that works for you?  Inquiring minds want to know!

I have not loaded any more WC ammo.  I am waiting for a sample of cases that Starline has kindly offered to send.  All my brass is +P cases.

steve_podleski wrote:

sharkdoctor wrote:To Steve, the OP:

Steve,

This thread had 50 posts, representing likely nearly 1k yr of reloading experience!   Were you able to resolve your problem(s) and produce ammo that works for you?  Inquiring minds want to know!

I have not loaded any more WC ammo.  I am waiting for a sample of cases that Starline has kindly offered to send.  All my brass is +P cases.

OK - sounds like a plan! Just because it is +p doesn't necessarily mean it is heavier.  You can check them by weighing and selecting the lightest brand.  They've worked OK for me, although Starline is certainly a good choice.  Best of luck to you, and thanks for the quick reply!

sharkdoctor wrote:

steve_podleski wrote:

sharkdoctor wrote:To Steve, the OP:

Steve,

This thread had 50 posts, representing likely nearly 1k yr of reloading experience!   Were you able to resolve your problem(s) and produce ammo that works for you?  Inquiring minds want to know!

I have not loaded any more WC ammo.  I am waiting for a sample of cases that Starline has kindly offered to send.  All my brass is +P cases.

OK - sounds like a plan! Just because it is +p doesn't necessarily mean it is heavier.  You can check them by weighing and selecting the lightest brand.  They've worked OK for me, although Starline is certainly a good choice.  Best of luck to you, and thanks for the quick reply!

Good idea.  I will weigh the cases and sort and load the lightest cases when I switch my Dillon back to the 38Special.  (reloading a bunch of 308 for my AR10-the BEAST:)

take a +P and a regular .38 spl case, fill with water and compare the volumes.

generally you'll find current +P and regular cases differ only in the headstamp to avoid using one in the other.

Find the +P's that match your regular brass and reload those.

There’s more variance between brands of brass for internal dimensions than “+P” vs non “+P”.  I have some PMC that are very stiff compared to Federal.  Segregated they shoot ok.  For match shooting, I only load RP, Federal and WW. Brass if I can get it.

Weighed 10 sample cases.  Starline are new, Winchester, R&P, and Federal are nickel plated +P cases.  Starting from lightest to heaviest cases, showing range of weights:
Starline    :64.0-64.7
Federal     :64.8-65.7
RP            :65.3-66.3
Winchester:71.3-72.9

Will do a water capacity test next.

Use of a pin gauge like Dave suggested, l found the following:

W-W branded cases (literally "WW") had the deepest or longest straight internsl length

Next was Federal then Winchester and finally RP with the shortest.

Wad cutter brass tended to have two cannelures in the case wall. 

Does it matter? Don't know yet, will test them in the RR when it warms up. Not sure weight is a good indicator as base thickness affect that with no impact on the bullet base. 

I suspect the key is simply sorting by brand.

We shall see, but then again I should be dryfiring instead....

Hi New Member here ! 
The OP didn't mention if his Wadcutters were DE or HB.
I've found that the chambers of my K38 and Model 15 don't like 
DEWC. The bulge the case.
HBWC  chamber fine ,even without specific  WC cases.
That can be a factor.

could you please explain what is DEWC and HBWC?  If you mean hollow base, no my wadcutters are solid.

Steve,
Double Ended Wad Cutter vs Hollow Base Wad Cutter
Lots of acronyms in the gun hobby.
The DE's put a bulge in the case that the S&W's do not like.
Many of the S&W revolvers were chambered tight so a round slides right in and out, but if there's a case bulge theres trouble.
I only use DEWC in my M52 which is a semi auto.
You save a couple of pennies on the DE but in my view they aren't worth the savings.
Most of the ones I have found are of the "hard cast" variety which is the reason or part of the reason for the case bulge .
A softer projectile would swage a bit when it was going through the die set of your loader the DE does not .
I found this out by doing, not reading , I shoot my revolvers often and have never shot factory ammunition from any of them.
If some of the folks out there have corrections or clarifications please share them.
Guess I should add that I'm running a Dillon 550 with Dillon Dies at present.
I've got a new powder funnel for my .38 tool head coming from Alex Poltorak  to seat wad cutters as a matter of fact.
I'm pretty new to the reloading game, its a process.

thanks for explanations!

Len,

Does the Lee FCD die produce a roll or a taper crimp?

Thanks,
Jim

ROLL

Thanks, Steve.  That seemed logical to me but wanted to make sure before ordering one.  I'm currently using the Dillon final crimp die but it doesn't resize the finished load.

The Lee final sizing die seems to stir up as much controversy as WD-40.
Some swear by it, some swear at it.
The added confidence of knowing my stuff will function out weighs an perceived loss of accuracy.
If I ever get the urge to apply the proper effort to my shooting I MAY find a difference...til then  shoot on.

I learned a lot in last few weeks playing with my new PTUs with full length expanders.  I'll try to summarize it very quickly with bullet points:
1. 38 brass is tapered inside.  The deeper you expand case, more pronounced bulge you'll get;
2. Specifications for anything shooting 38WC call for .380+ chamber, and many custom semi-autos have tapered chamber with ~.381- close to the case base and ~.379+ at the case mouth.
3. Based on the above if your resulting ammo has bulge with OD above .380 - expect feeding issues, and look for ways to fix it - see below. 
4. 38 brass specific to 38 WC has thinner walls and hence less prone to go over size limit.
5. when loading HBWC with .360" OD I suggest using Lee Carbide FCD.  I recently ordered custom one, and asked about tolerances.  For 38 WC I suggest FCD with sub-.377" in ID of the carbide ring.  .3765" is even better.  Both sizes fall into lower range of Lee's tolerance for their standard FCD.  However upper end of the tolerance is in .379"+ - something you don't want, IMO.
6. DEWC are normally shorter than HBWC, and less prone for going over size.  And they are not as "fat".  So, a. - you don't need to expand case as deep (i.e. - I expand case using my PTU just a bit shorter then length of projectile, and let seating die finish inserting it in the case).  Still be cognoscente of OD.
 
All of the above is IMHO.  Please experiment so you can find your own "best way".
AP

Try this...
After resizing, flaring and seating a bullet, back off the crimp. Then gradually adjust crimp to remove just enough of the flare so that the cartridge will enter the cylinder charge hole then see if it will drop in to proper depth. If so, then gradually add crimp, checking periodically. This may reveal whether the problem is over crimping thus expanding/bulging the case. As you add crimp, if loaded cases will no longer insert then there is your answer. Back off on the crimp a tad and you should be ok.

LenV wrote:Lee makes a factory crimp die that resizes case on the final step. I use them for my 40 cal and 44 also.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/251707/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die

I had the same problem with my 148 gr for my 52...I went with the Lee Taper Crimp Die and problems are gone.  Here is what my loads now look like...no more more bulges.

When I review this thread I get concerned for the novice shooter/reloader who wants to reload 38 Spl wadcutter ammo.  I hope they don't think they must have a set of pin gages, a brass trimmer, a neck trimmer (!!), weigh cases, or sort for case volume to prepare ammo suitable for competition.  The late Jerry Keefer, after much testing, recommended R-P cases and WST powder for HBWC loads around 710 fps.  Federal, W-W and Starline are good cases as well. Get a few hundred of one lot.  HBWC's by Rem, Zero (still avail.) and Star are good.  The skirt is forgiving - if it gets a bit smooshed in the case it expands in the barrel. Load them up, shoot and train. PMC cases bulge?  Don't use them!

Are you averaging 285+ NMC's with you gun?  If so, more careful load consideration and testing might be warranted, but doing that well is a whole 'nother ballgame.  What do you want to do?  Move up a class?  Get an H Reeves T-shirt?   Remember, they don't give badges in "Distinguished Reloading"

All I ever do is separate cases. I do not trim or weigh anything (other than trust the charge of powder from a Lee disk measure). Given that, I get some very decent accuracy from a 148 gr. Precision Delta or Hornady bullet behind 2.5 gr. of Bullseye powder. Been using that procedure for over 30 years.
Admittedly, this target is from a rest, but it shows accuracy my reloads are capable of giving. There are 20 rounds on that target.

Did you know that if you go to your photo album and right click you can hit copy and paste it here? Heck it doesn't even have to be the one that took the picture.  

didn't know that, but I will try it.  Yep, it works...thanks.