.45 Auto loads. Process, prep, powder, variations etc.

I’ve been reading and watching any threads, posts, video, vhs, dvd, article, books and YouTube I can find. I’ve searched for as many load recipes as I could reasonably find that I would trust in my most favorite hand. I’ve read a lot of things on pet loads from the fabled “USMC load” down to John Q. Pistolero’s load that he claims will circumcise a knat at 100 yards. 
     Just about every reloading manual, article, forum, manufacturer, gunsmith, individual etc. etc. has a different answer. Each and every one recommends something different.  I’ve read a lot of posts here and elsewhere that says something to the effect of trimming pistol brass is as useful as spent primers. But then I read an article about loads where “trimming brass to a consistent length” made a noticeable improvement to the loads accuracy.  It makes sense to me in my plebeian rifle shooters brain that if the brass is all the same length, then it will contribute to consistency. Consistency= accuracy. Now before the “just pick one and shoot! Then shoot more etc. etc” crowd jumps to. I agree that practice and training are very important. But, you can’t shoot pool with a rope. I believe my equipment should ALWAYS be better than I am and I want to know it.  I want to know why?  

Act 1 Scene 1: The reloading bench…
     You are a new bullseye shooter, chasing the Distinguished Pistol Shot. You have decided that you will be doing so with a 1911.  You’ve got yourself a quality gun that will hold sub 10 ring with Atlanta Arms Ammo, the 185gn AMU load at the 50. 
The last few years you’ve collected components; starline brass, nosler 185’s, Fed GM primers and a veritable powder buffet. (N310, N320, Accurate #5, Bullseye, Win 231/HP 38, WST, Unique.  All of which were referred to “as the best” at one time or another) The press is ready, dies are set, fresh coffee, shop heater is humming.  Time to fill the case feeder, pick a powder, a charge weight and start pulling on that pretty blue handle. But so many choices!
My brain hurts…

So, my questions;
-1.)How do you prep brass?  New or used, Are you concerned with consistent case length?  Do you even measure?  Or just take it on faith that starline, Winchester, whomever are consistent enough to make it count.  Or, is good enough, well, good enough?  With all the primping, massaging and sweet talk I give my 600-1000y rifle brass, I sorta feel like I’m going from a high maintenance super model girlfriend to the Victory Drive daywalker. You get to play with it sooner with much less work, but you get what you get and hope it doesn’t leave you questioning your life’s decisions.

-2.) how many firings do you get out of your long & short line brass?  Do you keep brass separated, tracking firings or just throw it all in the same bag, rinse and repeat?

-3.)how did you decide on a powder?  Load development?  Anecdotal evidence?  Trustworthy source (I.e. manual, published info, friends)? In my experience shooter “A” (high master) says powder X is the only powder I’ll need.  I tell shooter B, who is also a H.M. And they say “why the hell you using that?  Use powder XX!  

-4.)Does anyone know the AMU .45 185gn load?  Curious what’s in their own magic recipe.

-5.)What, if any, changes do you make to your loads for the 25 & 50?  Or do you have a “one size fits all”. With the new rule changes, would you shoot different bullet weights or bullet types (jhp, swc, lead) at each yardage?  What about .38/.357 Revolver? 

-6.)Are pistols/revolvers at all O.A.L. sensitive?

I have a lot more, but this suddenly became a novel.  Sometimes I take forever to say nothing, so I apologize for the length. Thanks for reading and any help/advice is appreciated. 
Regards,
Rob

“I believe my equipment should ALWAYS be better than I am and I want to know it.”

What do you consistently shoot with a Ruger mark I/II/III/IV and, say, CCI SV?

IMO if you have a gun and ammo combo that will shoot "sub 10-ring" Go practice and you will be distinguished soon. Going from a 3" gun to a 2" gun will maybe gain you a point in a 30 shot EIC.

Are you losing distinguished points by 1 or 2 points?

You could spend 50-100 hours (maybe more) finding the optimal load. Would that same time spent dry firing and live firing help you score by more than 1-2 points?

Howver to answer your direct questions...

1 I don't sort brass. I did at one time and took a load of 10 shortest and 10 longest, loaded them and shot them from a ransom rest. I could see no difference in point of impact.

Range pickup brass goes through a Martindale gage. My own brass just gets cleaned.

2. I don't know, 10? 20? 30? I occasionally get splits in cases. In general my A+ brass for 50yds can do at least several loadings. When I was shooting good I used new or once fired Starline for big matches at 50 yards and multiple uses Starline for local matches. I didn't actually see a difference but it made me feel good. I don't track firings in pistol brass other than new or once fired Starline.

3. I have found if a load is mentioned several times on this forum it is probably pretty close to the optimal load for my gun. Early on I thought I could find a secret load, but after testing loads from minimum to maximum in several powders and bullets it always ended up being pretty close to the loads mentioned here. Loads from the shooting press and non-bullseye websites are not much use to us.

4. nope

5. I used to shoot 4.8gr N310 at 50 and 4.4gr at 25 with the 185JHP. After a while I decided the extra abuse on me and gun wasn't worth the 1/4-1/2" improvement. I sometimes shoot 185 HPLSWC at 50 and 160 LSWC at 25. In fact the 160LSWC shoots almost identical to the 185 at 50 yards, but again, it made me feel better and I need to use up all those bullets I've bought over the years.

6. Not very sensitive to OAL. Be careful shortening OAL too much without reducing the charge, but I've never seen or heard about sensitivity like you get in Rifle. FWIW in rifle I shoot SMK77's because they are pretty indifferent to OAL and generally very forgiving- so I can just load and go shoot.

Thank you, SteveT. 
      I’m not really asking these questions to help me make a decision on what components I should run (I mean, I am, but I’m not.  Make sense? Yea, me either), the majority of what I read says that rifle tuning components in a pistol is moot. I’m not looking to reinvent the wheel nor am I trying to find a workaround for training and fundamentals. It’s more about learning the methodology of a pistol shooter vs. a rifle shooter when choosing a load for match use. Like I stated, I’m not looking to replace dry fire and range time with load development, I’m learning to shoot with my non-dominate hand/eye so I’ve got enough problems without trying to find work arounds. I’m trying to learn why shooters of better quality than myself are shooting the load they shoot.  That’s why I tried to “set the stage” and find out what your approach for a brand new gun would be. If you could go back in time and tell “new shooter Steve” what components to use. Did you add or remove steps with experience? Why you chose the components you did. What their brass processing might be. Would a few more minutes at the bench help save a couple points down range?  Is the return on investment worth it?

As far as knowing what my gun shoots with what ammo, well, that was a factory fired test target fired from a ransom shipped with the gun. I do not have the ammo, nor can I outright buy the ammo, even if it was currently in stock. Hence the curiosity on reloading.  

Am I missing leg cut by a number of points?  Well, right now I’m missing the cut by around 280 +/- points. I haven’t shot but 2 pistol EIC matches to date. The last one at the inaugural match at talledega CMP range, so it’s been a minute. Not a whole lot of bullseye shooters in Northern NV. At least that I’ve been able to track down. My Accuracy X 1911 wasn’t finished until 2017 and I’ve had to take the last 5 or so years off for family. I’m just getting going again and trying to get my wobble down to minute of target frame. But, I still need ammo and I enjoy learning from others with more experience than myself. 
Respectfully,
-Rob

SteveT wrote:
..

You could spend 50-100 hours (maybe more) finding the optimal load. Would that same time spent dry firing and live firing help you score by more than 1-2 points?
..

I'll pick a bone on that point.  Conceding that the "optimal" load is an unending rat hole, testing load/gun off a ransom rest for sufficient performance is important, especially when you are starting out and don't know what you don't know. 

One of my first (and very few) golf lessons the club pro had me watch him hit the bejeebus out of every club in my bag.  From that day on I knew my clubs were not the problem. 

It is not just the 1-2  points of mechanical performance, it is the confidence allowing you to dry fire, practice, and compete without lingering doubts.

Here's a good place to start

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t1209-pet-loads-of-top-shooters-loads-from-the-past

Right now, a lot of your decisions are already made for you, as it's more a question of what's available!

DA/SA wrote:Here's a good place to start

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t1209-pet-loads-of-top-shooters-loads-from-the-past

Right now, a lot of your decisions are already made for you, as it's more a question of what's available!

I’ve read through that thread several times. Lol. Which is what prompted this thread. 

And you’re right about that, but thankfully, i have been finding, or have found the majority of the most recommended .45 components. And I’ve been collecting various powders since I decided I was going to commit to earning my D.P. Badge back when I leg’d out in Rifle in 2013. And am very grateful to the shops/stores that I’ve found components (not sure if I could post the actual names per forum rules) wether in store or allowing orders.

Single_handed wrote:
...

So, my questions;
-1.)How do you prep brass?  New or used, Are you concerned with consistent case length?  Do you even measure?  Or just take it on faith that starline, Winchester, whomever are consistent enough to make it count.  Or, is good enough, well, good enough?  With all the primping, massaging and sweet talk I give my 600-1000y rifle brass, I sorta feel like I’m going from a high maintenance super model girlfriend to the Victory Drive daywalker. You get to play with it sooner with much less work, but you get what you get and hope it doesn’t leave you questioning your life’s decisions.

-2.) how many firings do you get out of your long & short line brass?  Do you keep brass separated, tracking firings or just throw it all in the same bag, rinse and repeat?

-3.)how did you decide on a powder?  Load development?  Anecdotal evidence?  Trustworthy source (I.e. manual, published info, friends)? In my experience shooter “A” (high master) says powder X is the only powder I’ll need.  I tell shooter B, who is also a H.M. And they say “why the hell you using that?  Use powder XX!  

-4.)Does anyone know the AMU .45 185gn load?  Curious what’s in their own magic recipe.

-5.)What, if any, changes do you make to your loads for the 25 & 50?  Or do you have a “one size fits all”. With the new rule changes, would you shoot different bullet weights or bullet types (jhp, swc, lead) at each yardage?  What about .38/.357 Revolver? 

-6.)Are pistols/revolvers at all O.A.L. sensitive?

I have a lot more, but this suddenly became a novel.  Sometimes I take forever to say nothing, so I apologize for the length. Thanks for reading and any help/advice is appreciated. 
Regards,
Rob

#4 is easy- the AMU doesn't have a proprietary pistol load (and never has, so far as I am aware), or do any reloading of their own for pistol loads. They purchase Atlanta Arms ammo; probably on some formal basis between the two, with set criteria for yearly quantity and to some agreed upon accuracy standard. If it's a 45, it gets a 185 JHP, and if it is a 9mm, it surely gets a 115 (but the AMU could also specify some 124 and 147s- who knows?) JHP. What either of those loads are don't matter too much- the primer and powder probably change based on availability and price. The brass tends not to- AA seems to favor Starline, but I've also pulled JAG brass out of their boxes, too. JAG is now a part of AMMO, INC., and I'd be surprised if AA wanted to purchase brass from what is now a direct competitor (but who knows, business can be quite incestuous). Could the AMU specify a particular formula? I guess they could, but if it didn't turn out in testing as being acceptable for use, the AMU would probably be on the hook to buy the whole lot; thus, let the ammo maker make it, and AMU test it. If the AMU likes it, then they buy a bunch of that lot. If the AMU doesn't like it, no harm done- sell it through the normal channels.

This same model is used by all major federal and state agencies when purchasing ammunition on contract. The AMU is no different than say, the FBI, in terms of what and how contracts get written.

A better question might be "what is the accuracy standard by which the AMU tests pistol ammunition?" I don't know, but it (or something like it) is probably published somewhere in some dry army document. 

An even better question might be, "if I know the accuracy standard by which the AMU tests pistol ammunition, then how many rounds are required to be confident in the results?" At least 30, and preferably 90. Here's an example of something Dave W. and I are working on to give you an idea of what I'm talking about (sorry that the image gets mangled in translation):



You might wonder about the "fliers;" but really, those are just outliers. Don't know that anyone could hold such a tight group- depending on how you measure it, of course.

-Chase

To answer your questions,

1.)First I wet tumble to clean the grit and grime.  Then I prep brass on an automated 1050 Dillon.  Size & Decap, Swage primer pockets (acting as a probe for ‘ringers’) finally expand to the flare required to operate the bullet feed die.   NO trimming. Second run thru is for priming and then another run thru for charging and bullet seating.  

2. I fire my brass until it splits.  Normally a small crack in the case mouth does nothing to the accuracy, but a split is bad.  Cases are “rattled” during the drying phase to listen for splits.  I do separate by make and I combine small numbers of makes which go into the training ammo.  

3. I usually have to shoot a load and see what shoots best.  So far I’ve found that Bullseye, 700X, WST, N310 shoot about the same.  I load one ammo that has to function and shoot well in multiple guns.  So I try to load to velocity.  200 Gr SWC Lead is loaded to 800 - 850 fps (10 inch Contender barrel). In a 5 inch 1911 these would be 700-740 fps.  185 JHP and JSWC are loaded to 775 out of a 5 inch barrel.  Other powders CAN work but I’ve never had much success.

4. I do know that the AMU load has changed from 4.5 to 4.2 (and back again) through the years, but one custom loader had the best results loading 4.5 N310 and a 185 JHP from Zero when he loaded match ammo for the USAR Pistol Team.  

5. If I get the gun to shoot a blob in the X on a B-8 target then there’s no advantage to swiching ammo or loads at 50.  90% of my shooting is at 25.  Even slow fire practice and training is done at 25 on B-16 targets.  

6. No!   For one thing target pistols are NOT bench rifles.  Secondly, they have to function 100% of the time. This means that the ammo has to be clear of the lands, the case mouths have to be crimped to remove the flare, and the cases need to be sized.  If you don’t you get alibis.  Alibis have a huge PENALTY so you avoid them.

Rob, I’ll offer two more thoughts which might save you some time:
1. There seems to be a solid consensus among experienced shooters that, as a starting point, 185 JHP (typically Zero) over 4.4 N310 will shoot well at the long line in most 1911s. That load should at least be a tried-and-true starting point. And, while there are all kinds of fine loads for the short line, where accuracy is not at a premium, you could start by backing that long line load down to 4.2, 4.1 or lower, depending on your gun, spring and recoil preference.
2. If I’m thinking clearly, the 10-ring at 50 yards is a little more than 6 MOA! That should give you, as a rifle shooter, some perspective on the need for a high maintenance companion for the pistol range.
Best,
Peter

My father’s favorite load 185 LSWC 5 grns 700x he missed the 62 Olympics by 1X

Excellent!  Thank you all very much. I’m trying to get a ransom rest so I can do some testing of my own.  Really, I just want to do whatever’s necessary to get a load I can trust with a powder I can actually get in reasonable quantities (4-8lbs or so).
I really want to try the Zero 185jhp bullets, especially since Nosler decided to turn the 185gn p/n 44847’s into “ASP” assured stopping power. Hopefully their adjustments for expansion don’t hurt what made the 185gn custom competition successful. but finding Zero’s or winchester L.P. primers is tough. I’ve heard they really do exist, but I’ve never actually seen them in their natural habitat with my own eyes. 
Running JHP at 50 and lead swc’s at the 25 is intriguing. Might play with that a little for matches other than EIC. I don’t have a dedicated wad gun.  I’ll just shoot my ball gun for everything save for Rimfire and Revolver. At least until I leg out.  It is nice to shoot lead for practicing fundamentals though. 

 As far as the AMU load, I know it’s commercially sourced from AAA. Was just curious if anyone might know what it’s guts are. Obviously AAA has it figured out. As far as accuracy standards the last time I spoke with the Rifle team Platoon NCOIC at Perry or SHOT Show, can’t remember which, he said he believed it was 1.5” or 1” @ 50 from a barrel fixture. If I could afford several cases I’d absolutely buy it and just worry about other things. I’m currently trying to design a prosthetic for cocking the 1911, Revolver & Ruger 22/45 without adjusting my grip. So I’ve got other issues I could be stressing about!
Thanks again,  I really enjoy the how’s and why’s of peoples processes.  Interesting and educational.   
Regards,
-Rob

Didn't your pistol come with a 50 yard test target and load data or does AX not provide that?

(trying to simplify your quest)

Single_handed wrote:If you could go back in time and tell “new shooter Steve” what components to use. Did you add or remove steps with experience? Why you chose the components you did. What their brass processing might be. Would a few more minutes at the bench help save a couple points down range?  Is the return on investment worth it?
Respectfully,
-Rob

I would tell me to invest in a top quality pistol sooner and not try to find incremental improvements in the equipment. 

If money is not a problem I would tell me to use Nosler or Zero 185 JHP, and buy a few thousand Starline brass. If money is a bigger concern I would tell me to use Zero 185 HPLSWC buy a few thousand "once fired" brass and sort out one well known brand for the long line, probably FED or WIN. Primers don't matter much. Make sure the crimp die straightens the case and doesn't press into the bullet. Powder doesn't really matter as long as it's one of the common bullseye powders (BE, N310, WST, Clays, S1000 etc).

I would tell me to load up a couple of the loads from the pet loads list, shoot them off a sandbag with a dot/scope. If one of the loads groups around 3 inches or better then you are done with load development until you are shooting 90's consistently at the long line.

You already have all you need.  Starline brass loaded with 4.5 gr. B'eye or 4.2 gr. VV 310 and 185 Nosler JHP, crimped to 0.469-0.470".  AKA the "Marine load" developed by Dorman and Salyer you can easily find the history of its development.  As top shooter Jim Lenardson noted in the top loads sticky on this site "it shoots just splendid".  When you can outshoot that load, you will easily be Distinguished, P100 and likely National Champion.  Best of luck to you in your efforts!

Of course, no loads noted above should be attempted without first consulting loading manuals, etc.

NukeMMC what publication is that from?  That is very cool information!

Hopefully, Jason will be along soon to show you the way the AMU does it.

and thanks for joining our forums!

Jason is a “free spirit” in many ways, so while he may be in the AMU, he might have his own ideas on reloading match pistol ammo….

Wobbley wrote:Jason is a “free spirit” in many ways, so while he may be in the AMU, he might have his own ideas on reloading match pistol ammo….

You don’t hear “free spirit” and Army used in the same sentence very frequently, lol.

Single_handed wrote:NukeMMC what publication is that from?  That is very cool information!

That is from an NRA Handloader's Guide my dad gave me about 40 years ago when I first started reloading.  You can get one off Ebay for under $20.

It is full of all kinds of selection and testing data from the post-war heyday of shooting and reloading.

NukeMMC wrote:

Single_handed wrote:NukeMMC what publication is that from?  That is very cool information!

That is from an NRA Handloader's Guide my dad gave me about 40 years ago when I first started reloading.  You can get one off Ebay for under $20.

It is full of all kinds of selection and testing data from the post-war heyday of shooting and reloading.

I’m gonna have to track one down. Thank you very much for sharing!  That is ultra cool.

Edit;
I searched NRA’s handloaders guide and quite a few different ones showed up. Does it have a photo of an rcbs powder measure, and say something like  “from issues of THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN from January, 1950 to December, 1968 and other issues”

Edit;
I searched NRA’s handloaders guide and quite a few different ones showed up. Does it have a photo of an rcbs powder measure, and say something like  “from issues of THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN from January, 1950 to December, 1968 and other issues”

Mine.  Inside latest copyright is 1969.

Here's a post from Jon...


Jon EuletteLike I’ve been saying…….mixed brass will shoot fine!

Finished this 45 several months ago. Customer supplied Ransom Rest target. Brazos 200 lswc, 4.0 Alliant Bullseye, mixed old brass. 10 shots 50 yards.
KKM 1:16 twist barrel. Free advertising for Brazos & KKM
Jon 


Here's the link to the thread.

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t19549-4-0-bullseye-brazos-200-lswc#170002

Single_handed wrote:NukeMMC what publication is that from?  That is very cool information!

March, 1959, American Rifleman  "Pistol Champions' Target Loads", maybe reprinted in other NRA publications