How many Bullseye competition shooters in USA ?

First topic message reminder :

How many Bullseye competition shooters do you think are in the USA ? Competition meaning big national , regional , State matches and the small local gun range matches that might have 6 local Matches a year. ? Just a rough idea ? 
Thanks. MD

Wobbley wrote:Here is the breakdown of competitors for a “Area Match”.  There are over 500 competitors.  For the Phoenix Mid Winter Classic there are 70?

[i]https://i.servimg.com/u/f26/19/14/74/76/img_0417.png[/img]

The Area Match is a USPSA match comparable to a regional bullseye match.  The divisions there range from equipment that you can buy at the local gun or sporting goods store all the way up to fancy stuff that exceeds the cost of a decent bullseye setup.  Action Pistol is Bianchi cup type shooting and the attendance at the local matches is very low.  Action pistol requires the accuracy of bullseye while shooting faster and drawing from the holster.  USPSA shooting is more speed than accuracy, but you do have to be able to hit the target.

Ok, I have reviewed all the posts and i respectfully suggest that everybody is missing the target here.  Myself included although I am trying my best.  

We are not recruiting good.  Matter of fact our marketing program is lousy to put a good spin on it.  

Granted, I post on local forums for new shooters and get a couple of nibbles every month, but I do not follow up every day.  I print out flyers and give them to the membership chairman at the four gun clubs I am a member of.  Do I follow up and see that they are handed out to new members?  Unfortunately, I need to be there personally to make sure they are delivered.  I post fliers at the local gun stores, adjacent gun clubs that do or do not hold bullseye competitions, and post them at the IdPA ranges at the gun clubs I am registered to and the adjacent gun clubs that I am not registered to.  I invite fellow competitors at one gun club to come check us out at the other gun clubs I compete at.  

I could do better but I am trying the best I can.  And I am getting some success, not as much as I would like but a small number of show ups every year.  

What are you doing?

CrankyThunder wrote:What are you doing?

Running at least 26 matches a year and helping out at probably two dozen more, plus usually running one clinic a year.

I'm not a "rah rah" recruiter type. I run well-organized matches and leagues, and I can lead you to water if you already have some experience in Bullseye. I have realized that I can't do it all.

I do actually shoot from time to time as well.

CrankyThunder wrote:What are you doing?

I am on the board of a local club, deal with club politics to allow matches and leagues as well as maintain the target equipment. In that same club I run 5-6 matches a year as well as a week night league for about 25-26 weeks of the year. 

I also run another league another range for 20 is weeks a year. 

I am also a trustee for my state organization and help run(occasionally run) four state matches at multiple ranges across the state.

I do make it a point to try and shoot at as many matches in the state as possible/practical and at least one outside the state as well. 

Support your local matches and clubs. Join clubs in your area that support bullseye. Carpool with friends to matches further away.

So I've been a Match director between USPSA, IDPA and steel matches for a scratch over 10 years, and I'm just getting into precision shooting just now. From a outsider looking in there are two issues, Access and Entertainment. 

Access being a issue is there is not a lot of people who want to run /MD a match, those who do run them now have to compete for Shooters "time". In my area we have maybe 1 Precision style match a month that is over 200miles vs 20 different shooting competitions that are inside that 2 hours via USPSA, IDPA, Tactical rifle etc etc, Only the most dedicated guys will come. Even as a MD for multiple style of action shooting matches, I RARELY see cross population of shooters shooting different matches other then there main shooting sport.

2nd Issue is entertainment value... Bullseye isn't fun to watch even for someone that shoots. In action shooting style match, you only maybe shoot 5 actual minutes total, the rest of the time you are observing other shooter before you and after you, wondering how they are going to shoot the same COF that you did, or you might change a plan the last second because you saw someone blitz through a stage so there is excitement. Bullseye doesn't have that from what I've seen so far.

I wouldn't really call this next reason of why people don't get into Precision but maybe I'd say why newer shooters leave or get frustrated. (perhaps i'm venting my frustrations as I'm getting into this 'game') is that bullseye is slow to adapt or evolve in its rule set vs the speed of evolution of the firearms industry. I'm not saying Presision shooting needs to chase the next "fling or fad" but for instance, my service pistol in the army (M17) has a reddot on it, many police officers I work with have reddots on there service pistols etc etc.

Docmedic wrote:I wouldn't really call this next reason of why people don't get into Precision but maybe I'd say why newer shooters leave or get frustrated. (perhaps i'm venting my frustrations as I'm getting into this 'game') is that bullseye is slow to adapt or evolve in its rule set vs the speed of evolution of the firearms industry. I'm not saying Presision shooting needs to chase the next "fling or fad" but for instance, my service pistol in the army (M17) has a reddot on it, many police officers I work with have reddots on there service pistols etc etc.

I think slow to adapt is a bit short sighted. Dots have been on bullseye guns since the 90s.

Dots on service pistols are coming. Scopes came to Rifle (Highpower Rifle) in the mid 2000s because many/most of combat troops were issued ACOG equipped M4s. The Army/Navy/NG/CMP would have to come to an agreement that dots are now an acceptable service pistol, but it’s coming (I don’t know when).

Wobbley wrote:Dots on service pistols are coming.  Scopes came to Rifle (Highpower Rifle) in the mid 2000s because many/most of combat troops were issued ACOG equipped M4s.  The Army/Navy/NG/CMP would have to come to an agreement that dots are now an acceptable service pistol, but it’s coming (I don’t know when).  

Hopefully sooner. We just finished shooting AFSAM and to my knowledge this has been the Only official interservice match to use reddots from the AAL on issued firearms for the second year with the only stipulation that EIC Combat Match be shot with a Iron sighted pistol... I also wouldn't complain if I can get my offhand back on the gun either..

chiz1180 wrote:

Docmedic wrote:I wouldn't really call this next reason of why people don't get into Precision but maybe I'd say why newer shooters leave or get frustrated. (perhaps i'm venting my frustrations as I'm getting into this 'game') is that bullseye is slow to adapt or evolve in its rule set vs the speed of evolution of the firearms industry. I'm not saying Presision shooting needs to chase the next "fling or fad" but for instance, my service pistol in the army (M17) has a reddot on it, many police officers I work with have reddots on there service pistols etc etc.

I think slow to adapt is a bit short sighted. Dots have been on bullseye guns since the 90s.

I'm talking about application not design.

Docmedic wrote:... I also wouldn't complain if I can get my offhand back on the gun either..

That would likely be “A Bridge Too Far”

Wobbley wrote:

Docmedic wrote:... I also wouldn't complain if I can get my offhand back on the gun either..

That would likely be “A Bridge Too Far”

Aim high, and settle for center mass 

The race to the bottom with all sorts of institutions starts with removing restrictions to "open it up to a wider audience" and in doing so making it something entirely different. The other thing is, red dots in service pistol would make the sport LESS accessible and increase the cost for a new shooter to compete. Right now, with how the rules are written, service pistol and .22 EIC in addition to the numerous games matches that have started to become a thing, bullseye is simply *the* most accessible pistol sport when it comes to equipment. Literally the only thing you need is a pistol and some ammo to start shooting matches, and you can get VERY far with something like a $300 Tisas 1911. 

The biggest issue that bullseye has is that it receives very little coverage online/through social media which is how everything thrives these days. Let me reiterate; EVERYTHING relies on social media these days and no, facebook doesn't count. Instagram and youtube are definitely the largest when it comes to guns. You see this in everything now. There are plenty of mediocre and frankly garbage products/companies out there who thrive simply by leveraging social media. 

So until we start seeing more young people interested in the sport who also understand social media and try their best to popularize it, the sport will eventually die out, which is a better fate than to see it twisted into something else before that point.

The other hurdle this creates for bullseye is that because it is becoming more unpopular, the matches are few and far between and especially so in certain states, and the only way people find out about these matches are through some pretty lame websites like the CMP Competition tracker, which is OK, or the NRA's competition portal which is absolutely terrible. 

There was a 2700 being held an hour away from me every month and I did not know about it because it was being hidden behind the terrible NRA website, and I only discovered it because I tried looking up air pistol matches on that website (which aren't there by the way). If you're a match director, I think it would be an interesting experiment to post matches on something like Practiscore to at least put it out there on an easy to read format (a map with pins in it). Maybe even just an unsanctioned NMC or something.

Plus on practiscore you already have an audience of shooters with a competitive mindset, or even better, because it is sort of the first website that "gun guys" point shooters who want to get into competitive shooting toward, a new shooter who might accidentally just stumble into an NMC because it was the closest/cheapest/lowest round count match near them or something. 

Also if your local club has like an IDPA or USPSA match or whatever, I don't think it would be too hard to get in contact with the match director and organize a 30-shot NMC or SAFS style intro to bullseye for anyone who is interested. 

I don't know, just food for thought. I try to do my best online/through social media. Focusing on shooting hard this year but will definitely learn to run matches at some point

The other headhurter that I see is the variety of matches.  If you aren't on the inside, figuring out the difference between CMP, EIC, 2700s, etc. can be a bit of a challenge.

FWIW, I never heard of this "Practisccre" before reading this thread.  But there is definitely a desperate need for a one-stop-shopping site to find matches.  ALL of them.

jareds06 wrote:will definitely learn to run matches at some point

I highly recommend this. You have some good ideas. Put them to work. Go for it!

There is a small, silent, yet strong minority making this sport work behind the scenes. We are always looking for new people to step up. Do eet.

Mike M. wrote:The other headhurter that I see is the variety of matches.  If you aren't on the inside, figuring out the difference between CMP, EIC, 2700s, etc. can be a bit of a challenge.

FWIW, I never heard of this "Practisccre" before reading this thread.  But there is definitely a desperate need for a one-stop-shopping site to find matches.  ALL of them.

A lot of the confusion of the differences between EICs and 2700s can be eliminated by simply reading the rule book. The amount of questions people ask that are explicitly explained in the rules proves that people don't read them. Though admittedly the slang terms for EIC's (leg match, ball match, ect.) can confuse things.

chiz1180 wrote:

Mike M. wrote:The other headhurter that I see is the variety of matches.  If you aren't on the inside, figuring out the difference between CMP, EIC, 2700s, etc. can be a bit of a challenge.

FWIW, I never heard of this "Practisccre" before reading this thread.  But there is definitely a desperate need for a one-stop-shopping site to find matches.  ALL of them.

A lot of the confusion of the differences between EICs and 2700s can be eliminated by simply reading the rule book. The amount of questions people ask that are explicitly explained in the rules proves that people don't read them. Though admittedly the slang terms for EIC's (leg match, ball match, ect.) can confuse things.

WHICH rule book?  We've got the NRA running around with one set of rules, CMP with their own rules.  If you're a novice, figuring this out is NOT obvious.

A guide that explains all "Precision Pistol" would be helpful for the novice.
CMP, NRA, International rules clarified and their differences may help.

And yes, more youtubes would help spread the word. Anybody can make them, and the more clicks the better.

jwax wrote:A guide that explains all "Precision Pistol" would be helpful for the novice.
CMP, NRA, International rules clarified and their differences may help.

And yes, more youtubes would help spread the word. Anybody can make them, and the more clicks the better.

  Try "The Encyclopedia of Bullseye Pistol" https://bullseyepistol.com

Mike M. wrote:WHICH rule book?  We've got the NRA running around with one set of rules, CMP with their own rules.  If you're a novice, figuring this out is NOT obvious.

Quite frankly either would be a good start. Even "experienced" bullseye shooters don't know the rules, they just rely on "but this is what so and so said". Both sets of rules are freely available to read.

I've just "poked my head through the door" of Bullseye Pistol. Looking at the sport with young eyes, I can see a few places where Bullseye will always have an uphill climb. There is a lot of competition for the attention of young people. That competition also has nearly instantaneous rewards. To get more people of any age into BE, I think it would take efforts coming from different directions.
The NRA will need to become a friendlier face to the general public. There have been too many decades where the NRA has been demonized in the media. The NRA would need to actively promote shooting sports in a highly public and positive manner. Manufacturers need to sweeten the pot. Goodie bags that accompany achievement appeal to young people (old people like it too). Specific models tailored toward Bullseye (that don't cost $$$$.$$) would be great. Perhaps a BE package: buy this pistol and get a basic Bullseye range kit (t-shirt, pasters, gauges, box of kleenex, whatever). Local gun stores that have ranges could partner with the NRA and pistol/ammo manufacturers to provide awards for accomplishment.

Bullseye appeals to me because it is challenging. The competitions are somewhat like Golf. I am my only real competition... I've also aged like blue label cheese -I don't NEED a pat on the back.

The younger generations have been conditioned to receive rewards and praise for good performance. Like it or not, it's pretty well established...

Except for “boutique” ammo companies, there is little 45 “Bullseye” ammo loaded. Only Federal still loads it and not often.  If the other two large companies would load some 185 grain HP at a velocity of 775 or so as ‘Target” ammo, it might help some?

Wobbley wrote:Except for “boutique” ammo companies, there is little 45 “Buulseye” ammo loaded. Only Federal still loads it and not often.  If the other two large companies would load some 185 grain HP at a velocity of 775 or so as ‘Target” ammo, it might help some?

For sure!

The price / round of commercially avaliable 45acp is ridiculous! For what they are asking, wadcutters in nice brass with large primers should be on a lot of shelves. I have a BE capable 45. I don't shoot it nearly enough because of the $.

ding-a-ling wrote:The younger generations have been conditioned to receive rewards and praise for good performance. Like it or not, it's pretty well established...

As someone who is "younger generation" the only people that I have seen comment on the need for reward for good performance is the older folk. I have not seen the "younger guys" at the matches I shoot really caring about winning stuff or money, their concerns tend to be about self improvement. In fact I have seen "younger guys" go way further out of the way to attend matches when they can.

chiz1180 wrote:

ding-a-ling wrote:The younger generations have been conditioned to receive rewards and praise for good performance. Like it or not, it's pretty well established...

As someone who is "younger generation" the only people that I have seen comment on the need for reward for good performance is the older folk. I have not seen the "younger guys" at the matches I shoot really caring about winning stuff or money, their concerns tend to be about self improvement. In fact I have seen "younger guys" go way further out of the way to attend matches when they can.

...they are already at the match!

The hardest part of the problem has been solved.

Ask a high-school aged child to get up earlier than normal, join a competition that has no prizes, and that they are unlikely to excel in..... A lot of them would rather play Xbox, or phone surf, or go shoot an IDPA/USPSA match (get to try out some John Wick moves). This is one of the uphill battles that BE will always have.

Incentives get them to the line. Satisfaction might keep them coming back.

ding-a-ling wrote:

chiz1180 wrote:

ding-a-ling wrote:The younger generations have been conditioned to receive rewards and praise for good performance. Like it or not, it's pretty well established...

As someone who is "younger generation" the only people that I have seen comment on the need for reward for good performance is the older folk. I have not seen the "younger guys" at the matches I shoot really caring about winning stuff or money, their concerns tend to be about self improvement. In fact I have seen "younger guys" go way further out of the way to attend matches when they can.

...they are already at the match!

The hardest part of the problem has been solved.

Ask a high-school aged child to get up earlier than normal, join a competition that has no prizes, and that they are unlikely to excel in..... A lot of them would rather play Xbox, or phone surf, or go shoot an IDPA/USPSA match (get to try out some John Wick moves). This is one of the uphill battles that BE will always have.

Incentives get them to the line. Satisfaction might keep them coming back.

Go to an air match, plenty of kids at those matches. SASP also has a bunch of kids shooting too, including issf courses of fire. 

Lots of blame is put on people not showing up, which does hurt a ton, but people also ignore the fact that the number of match opportunities is a fraction of what it once was, which hurts even more. I know of at least 5 clubs within a 2-3 hour drive of me that no longer hold matches from when I first started just 5 years ago. In that same radius is at least a half dozen IDPA/USPSA matches. What is the easier sell to someone, driving 3 hours to a match or one that is a fraction of the distance?