Air Pistol is SO MUCH FUN!

Just took my first shots on my LP10 with what little air it had in the cylinders it came with (getting a setup to refill here friday) and holy crap this is SO FUN

Just a couple 10 shot strings after getting it zeroed for a center hold. I think the slight cross breeze caused my my shots to string out a lot on the first target, unintuitively in the opposite direction. The wind was blowing left to right and I think I was probably slightly over correcting and pushing the shots left.

Also, I have a question for Mr John Bickar for the benefit of the group: do you shoot center hold on 10m Air Pistol as well as all your other disciplines?

Also, lesson learned already, these targets are not great. after the cardboard got punched out behind, the shot holes started tearing out bigtime. Going to see if i can find a system to make these produce cleaner holes befor buying some Kruger targets

Before I got my etarget, if I was shooting on the American target b40s I would only shoot 5 per target. Matches shot on paper targets are often 5 shots/ target anyways. 

Air matches are a ton of fun.

chiz1180 wrote:Before I got my etarget, if I was shooting on the American target b40s I would only shoot 5 per target. Matches shot on paper targets are often 5 shots/ target anyways. 

Air matches are a ton of fun.

Good advice, think I'll do that from now on. What would be a good electronic target system that you recommend?

Shooting inside with my Steyr was a great indoor tool to use when I was really pushing for Expert and Master. I got an adapter to use a Holosun dot. Definitely fun and challenging, that 10 ring can feel real small lol.

Don't have one of these, but looks promising:
https://free-e-target.com/

As far as an etarget, it depends on what you want to do. If you have Olympic asperations Sius is basically the standard. Meyton makes a good system, same with Megalink, same with Kongsberg. The standout is the sport quantum (SQ10) as it doesn't use paper consumables. Lots of DIY options too if you are comfortable working with electronics.

Pretty good shooting! These look very decent! 
Most air pistol shooters use sub-six hold, but if you can shoot like this with centerhold, I'd say keep doing what you're doing
At our club we use Finnish Inband targets, they do require paper masks and witness tape, but they are relatively inexpensive and work well. 
As for the paper targets, I think Kruger is pretty much the only good option.

Wow didn't realize how much these e target systems could cost. I think I'll stick to paper for now LOL

One thing I noticed is how much movement there actually is in my hold. The huge big long sight radius of the AP, which I've extended out as much as possible, shows my movement similar to how a red dot does (which is essentially infinite sight radius). On my service pistol my iron sights look like they're glued together. On my hammerli, there is just maybe the slightest indication, but it is definitely noticeable with the AP.

jareds06 wrote:Wow didn't realize how much these e target systems could cost. I think I'll stick to paper for now LOL

One thing I noticed is how much movement there actually is in my hold. The huge big long sight radius of the AP, which I've extended out as much as possible, shows my movement similar to how a red dot does (which is essentially infinite sight radius). On my service pistol my iron sights look like they're glued together. On my hammerli, there is just maybe the slightest indication, but it is definitely noticeable with the AP.

If you regularly compete on them at a high level, when you take in to account the cost of travel and lodging for matches, the cost is a bit easier to amortize. Deals do show up from time to time.

As far as movement, air pistols typically have a significantly longer sight radius and the balance point is different. If you put in the effort to train in the discipline you will be able to see less movement. 

Also Javaduke's post reminded me about the center hold, I shoot all my metallic sighted guns with a center hold including my air pistol and typically am fairly competitive. If center works for you stick with it.

The Kruger targets are top quality and make a big difference, and (at least with wadcutter bullets) the holes are clean and round.

I have not been shooting (official 10M) air much and have been shooting them with .22 and .45 at the range.  Jared I have extra and if you want to try them I can send you a small stack for no charge.  If you're interested PM me your shipping address.

JHH

Higher velocity is important too…if your shot goes p-tink instead of Bzap, you’re too slow.max is 500 fps for ISU rules

More practice today! Had some air left in one of the cylinders. Enough to shoot 30 shots but I don't think I could have done another 30 with the amount of air I had left. 284/300. I think I've got the grip to sort of kind of where I want it. I have the rake basically as vertical as it goes and I took off some high spots with a file. I'm also shooting with a pretty wicked cant, maybe 15-20 degrees. It's unfortunate that I can't adjust rake and cant at the same time with the LP10. This gun shoots great. I love the fact that anything outside of the 10 ring is entirely my fault. Chasing ammo problems/wandering zeroes is one of the most infuriating things about shooting sometimes. 

I have a question: Why is the rake so aggressive on air pistols as standard? It looks like almost universally the top athletes shoot with this very aggressive rake angle so I must be the odd one out here. It just seems extremely uncomfortable for me, which could be in part to the grips being a little too small for my hand. Is it something I should just get used to? Would it be more beneficial to restore the rake angle to default and instead use the adjustment to correct for my cant? Coming from centerfire and Rimfire pistols I'm used to near vertical rake, with somewhere between the 1911 and hammerli 208 having what I would consider the optimal rake angle. In fact the grips for my hammerli 208 feel basically perfect to me and I can't seem to replicate that feel on these grips. 

Also, in looking at the CMP's air pistol rules it says : 
Sights. Only open sights are permitted. Sights using fiber optic, light enhancing or reflecting color surfaces are prohibited. Optical, mirror, telescope, laser-beam, and electronically projected dot sights etc. are 19 prohibited

I have a little dab of silver sharpie on my front sight post, would that not be allowed? 

Anyways, excited to get a way to fill the cylinders tomorrow. Will also chronograph and look into adjusting the velocity if need be as per Mr. Martindale's advice. 

Have you read the Russian marksmanship book that was translated by the NRA? It’s called Competitive Shooting.

There is an entire chapter on the grip that goes into the biometrics of grip angles for the Euro guns. I don’t have the scientific background necessary to explain the biometrics, but basically, you want the grip sized on a precision pistol so that your grip tension raises the gun between 7 and 12 degrees muzzle-up from a relaxed dead hang.

Light triggers (500g for AP, 20-40g for 50m free pistol) permit lighter grips that are more dependent on anatomic fit. Lighter grips are apparently more stable with the longer barreled pistols, and a more relaxed grip minimizes wobble and the risk of muscle twitches.

Guns like the .45 need a strong wrist and forearm to cycle reliably and to ensure good return to zero. Vertical grip angles are more conducive to strong grips, and strong grips work better when the trigger is 4 lbs.

Euro rake takes a muscle group out of the picture 

It also prevents excess grip pressure which reduces fine motor control of the trigger finger. You can droop AND grip tight. AP is a trigger game whereas FP is a pointing ( hold quality) game

Doing great!  If you can pull out a 568 on match day you will be winning a lot.  Last time iI looked at score trends 563 was olympic minimum qual score, 576 avg gets you on team USA, 586 gets olympic gold!  2022 NTI I think was won with 566, 566.  Shoot anything above EIC minimum will collect you EIC points often. You’re hitting the ground running!

Just an idea on targets: attached (hopefully) is what I use. Just some arts and craft with a photocopier that was then scanned and I print as needed.  5 shots per and i just lightly tape the center of the sides to a cardboard box filled with junk mail. Occasionally repair the front with 3” masking tape. Lasts forever.  Occasional tearout but not bad for five shots and definitely scoreable.

https://i.servimg.com/u/f69/20/55/98/60/img_2012.jpg

I actually use it vertically and shoot like reading if it matters.  Also use a baby monitor that has a moveable camera to view clise down range to spot

TomahawkBonk wrote:https://i.servimg.com/u/f69/20/55/98/60/img_2012.jpg

I actually use it vertically and shoot like reading if it matters.  Also use a baby monitor that has a moveable camera to view clise down range to spot

I'm getting a small amount of Kruger targets to try them out but i will definitely try this out as well. Also, walking down and scoring the target after every shot is pretty tedious but if I don't do that, these targets tearout and it's almost impossible to see what my hits were sometimes. A

As far as a 568 on match day, that's the hard part isn't it lol. Since I was shooting well today I went and practiced 22 EIC and SP as well and was annoyed with how poorly I was doing with service pistol compared to my averages and considering I shot a 96 with that pistol not even a week ago. Shot like an 88 and 90 even though every shot felt very, very solid. Well I grouped my handgun from a sand bag and the group has opened up to about 5 inches at 50 yards. It was 3.5 inches the last time I tested it.    Might be the new lot of ammo I'm on. Anyway just to make sure I wasn't going crazy I shot my .22 and shot a 96 with 4 inside 9s and 1 scratch 10 so yeah I need to resolve this accuracy issue with my service pistol ASAP. 

JRV: I'll take a look

Got a tank and filled her up. Did 30 shots today just before sunset. 282/300. I was distracted on the first target and it took me a few shots to get dialed in. I guess I should have taken some sighters first! Oh well a benefit of not hitting the 10 ring is you get to use more of the target so I put 10 shots on the first target. If you zoom in you can see me mark them after every shot and as I get up to shot 8, 9 and 10 I'm getting more centered. I totally understand what Bruce Martindale said about this being a trigger game. It's just like the long line in bullseye and once I started to do that my shots got better and better. On the 3rd target, I was slightly overcommiting to the trigger pull which caused one to break high and one to break low both into the 8 ring but windage was dead on; the next 3 were in the 10 and x ring as I slowed down and paid more attention to my trigger pull. Once I got a good process/pace to my trigger pull going, the next 2 targets were very nice with only one 9 between them. My last target was awesome. Started with a near perfect center punch, and ended up with five 10s. I really want to see how I would do under more ideal conditions, ie not walking back and forth to the target after every shot and shooting indoors with consistent lighting/no wind, although there was really no wind today.

Also did some .22 EIC practice and Service Pistol. .22 was 95-2x on the long line with a tight cluster of 7 shots in the 10 ring, then 2 out in the 8 ring and one in the 9 that was almost a 10. SP, an abysmal 86, but a decent group about 6" horizontal and 4" vertical just high over where I need it to be (and my elevation is bottomed out unfortunately). 
 I then tested my service pistol on a sand bag, which I did the day before as well, and I've come to the conclusion that I have exceeded the accuracy potential of my current service pistol setup and need to start loading some actual match grade ammo rather than just shooting factory. Theoretically, in 1974 when my P210 was made, it shot a 2 7/8" group at 50 meters. I don't know how much of that accuracy potential has degraded over the years, but I don't think much as I received the gun in great shape. I think it's an ammo issue. Chrono'd the ammo and was getting some widely varying results. I used to subscribe to the notion that the gun is always more accurate than the shooter, but if I can shoot a 94-95% in air pistol, which has tighter scoring rings, as well as a 95/ roughly 4.5" group in .22 EIC, there is no reason why I should be scoring an 86% or really anything below a 90% with my service pistol. 

Not sure if this is Kosher here but shooting AP that well you might want to check out TargetTalk site, which specializes in Olympic / International competition.  

They have postal matches as well as information on formal competition:  https://www.targettalk.org/viewforum.php?f=4

If you score like that with AP after a week you should consider moving beyond the interweb realm

Check out the CMP's Aces Postal Match, fee is nominal and they provide high quality targets.

JHHolliday wrote:Not sure if this is Kosher here but shooting AP that well you might want to check out TargetTalk site, which specializes in Olympic / International competition.  

They have postal matches as well as information on formal competition:  https://www.targettalk.org/viewforum.php?f=4

If you score like that with AP after a week you should consider moving beyond the interweb realm

How exactly do postal matches work? 

Also I 100% plan to shoot some matches. It would just be nice to have some physical matches literally anywhere around. The only match I'd really be able to attend it seems would be the air gun matches at Camp Perry during the National Matches.

TargetTalk postal matches are posted on the site - the rules should be evident there.  

To my understanding postal matches are remote / honor system based.  Contestants are expected to shoot at stipulated distances, times, etc, according to game rules, and then submit scores.  As opposed to actual physical matches where rules are enforced in person.

You'll love Kruger targets!

jareds06 wrote:
How exactly do postal matches work? 

With CMP Aces, you receive a pack of targets that work with an electronic scoring and scanning system. Three sighters and 12 record bulls. Shoot your sighters, shoot the record bulls, do it all at 10 meters within the time allowed for paper targets, then mail the record bulls back to CMP.

jareds06 wrote:Theoretically, in 1974 when my P210 was made, it shot a 2 7/8" group at 50 meters. I don't know how much of that accuracy potential has degraded over the years, but I don't think much as I received the gun in great shape. I think it's an ammo issue. Chrono'd the ammo and was getting some widely varying results. 

If your P210 has a 1:10 twist barrel, it will likely perform best with the 147 gr JHP subsonic rounds. I hand loaded for my P210A (the newer American made model), the MV sweet spot is about 900 fps +/-. You can buy that ammo from Atlanta Arms. 147 gr Sig Sauer Elite is also very accurate but very expensive. I would try that first. 

IIRC your P210 has upper lugs similar to a 1911, and a curved bottom lug "slot" for the slide stop. Some models also were equipped with a front bushing, which was later discontinued. As is the case with any such design, worn lugs and/or too much clearance between barrel and slide/bushing will degrade group size. I don't think there is anything magic here...just common sense on lockup quality and consistency. 

You can also experiment with different recoil springs, and try to "tune" it somewhat:  

http://www.pistolenspezialist.de/epages/62174389.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/62174389/Products/442