A Dance with Dragons

Well, ladies and gentlemen, after a years of hesitation and years of preparations and a couple of months of making chips I finally present to you the new Dragon!



Please don't let the appearance fool you  This is just a proof of concept made from the most garbage parts I could find in my parts bin. I made it just to see if, well, I can build it (and as a response to the Roy Dean's challenge ). I test fired it today after some refining and it shoots quite well, the muzzle jump is very minimal and the recoil is very pleasant, comparable to that of .38 special wadcutters out of my Model 52.

This, as you can see, is based on the legendary Ed Masaki Dragon. There are some differences though. My goal was to minimize the use of custom parts, so the barrel block and the recoil spring guide are the only parts made from scratch. The barrel is turned from a standard 1911 barrel, I just machined the lower lugs off and turned the chamber area down to about .650". The slide is made from a standard 1911 slide, and so is the slide stop (it's actually a two-part piece, the pin is from the Nelson conversion).

The good thing about it is that the only quality parts you need is the ignition set. The frame rails are not important, the slide fitment is not important, the barrel can be machined from one that lost its accuracy due to worn out lower lugs (or never had it, like some factory barrels with lower lugs cut 10 thou short), there's no need for bushing, no need to drill and tap the slide for scope mount (since the picatinny rail is part of the barrel block), so pretty much all you need there is a good trigger, and it's relatively easy to obtain.

My next step is to build a proper one from good parts and put it through some tests for accuracy and reliability, and then find a CNC company that can machine the barrel blocks for me. If everything checks out, I will be offering it as a conversion service for your existing base gun (think Tisas or Springfield GI). I estimate the price of the conversion to be about $1500, give or take a few. The production version may look slightly different, my tests showed earlier that it doesn't need four gas tubes, so I plugged the bottom ones and left only the top ones functioning. So going forward I will only use two gas tubes. I also might experiment with 6" barrels and see if it makes any difference. And, of course, you would be able to select any options usually offered by pistol builders, like beavertail safety, blued or cerakoted finish, ambi safety, etc.

So, I guess the point of this post was to ask you, fellow shooters, if anyone is interested in purchasing one. There's no point starting the whole thing if I don't see much interest. Please let me know what you think.

E.

Well done Eugene!

That is exactly what i hope to see when i click on equipment discussion, you are a hero among smiths. And yes I want one.

I'm interested.

Bill

Very interesting, i like a Lot the concept of Ed Masaki Dragón guns

After seeing your post i searched for information regarding the Ed Masaki Dragon pistol. 

It's a very interesting design. If i understand correctly it is a 1911 with a fixed barrel, the two tubes running along side of the barrel are exhaust ports and the pistol functions as a blowback design.


thanks for sharing this.

Count me in, Eugene!
And, my money go where my word does, - I'm ready to send deposit!

AP

I wouldn't turn this down. I'm in.

Dave

My imagination is running wild with the possibilities... some ideas, maybe crap but who knows.
1) could you use a large diameter bull barrel like a ppc revolver, or would that leave no room for the gas tubes? Use a barrel blank, machine the sides flat to match width of the barrel block.
2) 1:13 twist. Wonder if the standard 3.5-3.9 BE load would function. Would the fast twist/lighter loads negate the advantage of a gas gun? 
3) Rail options. Would it be possible or feasible to integrate a longer rail that connects to the barrel and barrel block (would probably need extra diameter of bull barrel) that allows mounting of tube dots like 9000sc. Can't tell on the Masaki gun, does that longer rail section tap into the barrel?

How stiff of a recoil spring, is it hard to rack/unlock? 

Really cool project.

Yes, that would leave no room for gas tubes, I would have to either make integral gas ports, which means machining long thin holes along the axis of the barrel, or make grooves for the gas tubes, which also adds complexity. Plus it would make the gun very heavy, which is not necessary, because the muzzle jump is reduced.

I tested the gun with my standard 3.7gr BE / 200gr bullet, it cycles fine. And yes, different twist rates and different loads are on my todo list, I'd be very interested to try some 160gr bullets with 3.2gr BE or whatever is the lightest powder charge that still stabilizes the bullet at 50 yards. So many possibilities, so little time

A longer rail is another item on my todo list. My only concern is that the gas from the tubes will blow directly onto the red dot.

The recoil spring is 18 lbs and probably may need even stiffer one, again, TBD further down the road. That's why the slide racker is pretty much mandatory.

I would be interested in a gun like this as well

Very Nice and yeah that dose pic my interest. Though I was at Perry when Ed shot his Dragon Gun, I never got to see it or him that year and regret missing seeing him. The crowd was so thick around him it would have taken a crowbar to get through it (and I wouldn't have been using it to pry with).
I'm already putting funds aside for a Dragon Gun Conversion.

javaduke wrote:Yes, that would leave no room for gas tubes, I would have to either make integral gas ports, which means machining long thin holes along the axis of the barrel, or make grooves for the gas tubes, which also adds complexity. Plus it would make the gun very heavy, which is not necessary, because the muzzle jump is reduced.

I tested the gun with my standard 3.7gr BE / 200gr bullet, it cycles fine. And yes, different twist rates and different loads are on my todo list, I'd be very interested to try some 160gr bullets with 3.2gr BE or whatever is the lightest powder charge that still stabilizes the bullet at 50 yards. So many possibilities, so little time

A longer rail is another item on my todo list. My only concern is that the gas from the tubes will blow directly onto the red dot.

The recoil spring is 18 lbs and probably may need even stiffer one, again, TBD further down the road. That's why the slide racker is pretty much mandatory.

I can send you some 160s if you need some.

Apparently I have developed a reputation among my fellow shooters for purchasing "Dumb Bickar Guns (DBG)", so sure, count me in.

For you, John, I'll make it a smart one  With bluetooth, wifi and ChatGPT on board ))

Another idea, would it be easier/cheaper to use a walther 17” barrel blank (2 barrels per?) than turn down a 1911 barrel.. $135-330 per depending on O.D.
https://www.lothar-walther.com/gun-barrel-blanks/pistol-barrels/?p=1&o=1&n=12&f=6507%7C6522

If I convert an existing gun, it already has a barrel, so it can be reused. These blanks are quite a bit oversized (so that there's enough material to machine the lugs), and all that material has to be removed. So no, it won't be cheaper and it won't be easier.

Greetings,

50 yard group with a 13 Twist KKM barrel using the World Famous H&G #130 bullet.

Note, 3.0 grains of Bullseye...



Now, for something completely different...

The H&G S242 cast of LinoType at 50 yards.....

Again, the 13 twist KKM barrel.



Not sure if a Dragon Gun would perform the same. Not familiar with the physics involved.

Cheers,

Dave

Dave, I assume this was done from your barrel fixture, and the barrel is fixed, not tilting, correct? I assume the Dragon should have similar accuracy then. But of course it needs to be tested

javaduke wrote:Well, ladies and gentlemen, after a years of hesitation and years of preparations and a couple of months of making chips I finally present to you the new Dragon!



Please don't let the appearance fool you  This is just a proof of concept made from the most garbage parts I could find in my parts bin. I made it just to see if, well, I can build it (and as a response to the Roy Dean's challenge ). I test fired it today after some refining and it shoots quite well, the muzzle jump is very minimal and the recoil is very pleasant, comparable to that of .38 special wadcutters out of my Model 52.

This, as you can see, is based on the legendary Ed Masaki Dragon. There are some differences though. My goal was to minimize the use of custom parts, so the barrel block and the recoil spring guide are the only parts made from scratch. The barrel is turned from a standard 1911 barrel, I just machined the lower lugs off and turned the chamber area down to about .650". The slide is made from a standard 1911 slide, and so is the slide stop (it's actually a two-part piece, the pin is from the Nelson conversion).

The good thing about it is that the only quality parts you need is the ignition set. The frame rails are not important, the slide fitment is not important, the barrel can be machined from one that lost its accuracy due to worn out lower lugs (or never had it, like some factory barrels with lower lugs cut 10 thou short), there's no need for bushing, no need to drill and tap the slide for scope mount (since the picatinny rail is part of the barrel block), so pretty much all you need there is a good trigger, and it's relatively easy to obtain.

My next step is to build a proper one from good parts and put it through some tests for accuracy and reliability, and then find a CNC company that can machine the barrel blocks for me. If everything checks out, I will be offering it as a conversion service for your existing base gun (think Tisas or Springfield GI). I estimate the price of the conversion to be about $1500, give or take a few. The production version may look slightly different, my tests showed earlier that it doesn't need four gas tubes, so I plugged the bottom ones and left only the top ones functioning. So going forward I will only use two gas tubes. I also might experiment with 6" barrels and see if it makes any difference. And, of course, you would be able to select any options usually offered by pistol builders, like beavertail safety, blued or cerakoted finish, ambi safety, etc.

So, I guess the point of this post was to ask you, fellow shooters, if anyone is interested in purchasing one. There's no point starting the whole thing if I don't see much interest. Please let me know what you think.

E.

Yes I am interested in one. Any idea if one of these could be “service pistol” legal for EIC and P100?

-Trevor

No, unfortunately it won't be legal for the EIC and P100, it is based on a service pistol but I'm afraid the differences are too dramatic for it to qualify. Besides, the iron sights will be difficult to install, it is really designed for optics only.

Im really fascinated to see how you did the barrel mounting with the block and recoil spring guide, please share pictures of it all taken apart when able!

Pretty simple actually. The frame is machined for the Clark/Para ramp cut. The block has two cross holes, one is .200 and the other one is .157. The recoil spring rod is threaded into the block and pulls it forward, so that when the cross pins are installed and the recoil spring rod is threaded in and tightened, it pulls the block forward and the pins stay in place.

Basically a Marvel 22 type conversion, except all extra gasses leak off into the tubes to reduce impact on the slide?

Eugene,

With the short rail + standard Aimpoint type mount the dot rides quite high above the gun. How about milling a small platform onto the top of the breech block with Pardini style micro-grooves, then a Kodiak Aimpoint mount goes straight on?

And, of course, I happen to have a couple of those mounts to spare - will bring them to AZ.

Sure, it can be done. Also the production version will have the dot mount lower than this, I already made some adjustments to my 3d model.