Walther Q5 9mm

Delighted my wife with a Walther Q5 (match version of PPQ-M2) P/N: 2813335.  Shot out-of-the box a little left at 25 yards using the un-touched excellent iron sights.  Even so, almost impossible not to hit 25 yard gong.  After cleaning and lub:  Trigger force close to 5 1/4 pounds-force and very smooth.  Very predictable trigger - perhaps a little better than PPQ-M2 4 inch used by wife in IDPA.  Goes boom when mind says now.  Mounted Venom sight - need to use the screws provided by Walther and "Doctor" plate.  Dot is close to normal sight axis!  Very little tilt from the normal is required with the nice and low Venom.  Mass with one empty magazine, S back strap, and Venom is 804.5 grams.  Factory test target - with one flyer that is surly the first shot out of a new barrel - is a one inch group at 25 meters.  Remove one pre-cut piece of foam from the case and the Q5 with Venom fits exactly.  Need to work up a load. 
 
As a note (especially for a starting shooter or Marksman) the usually suggested Range Officer has an initial cost that is close to that of Q5, however the internals of RO have to be replaced, expensive mount has to be installed, and that results in an excellent trigger (it is a 1911) with a high mounted red dot at a cost of several $100 more than a Q5 out-of-the-box containing three magazines and red-dot mounting plates.  Food for thought.

Sounds like a great "gong" shooter,

The problem is that if you shoot that gun in CF, you still need to get an RO for the 45 stage.

And a range box that takes extra wide pistols.

"Sounds like a great "gong" shooter"  A droll and accurate observation.  Thanks Jim.
If one watches Hickcock45's reviews, one can see that just about all pistols are "gong worthy."  [if you are a High Master, over 6 feet tall, and have huge hands]
As we all know, to zero sights, one first needs to hit some target so as to estimate how the sights need to be moved.
Next, again as is well known, various loads need to be tested.  


Clearly, most everyone in bullseye believes, with cause, that only a 1911 platform is sufficient for CF or 45ACP.   A few hold out for S&W 52 and various space guns made in Europe.  However, those few of us who have managed to stay alive for a long time or who are of small size or who have small hands or are otherwise not capable of advancing past Marksman, are interested in a better match to our limited capabilities than a 1911 with a high mounted red dot sight (no matter how excellent the 1911's trigger is).  


Much of my goal is to present actual measured numbers (still incomplete) and for those numbers and my observations to be food for lurkers to the site who are thinking about bullseye or have limitations not conducive to the one-size-for-all 1911.  


The only approved, outdoor bullseye matches that we can get to with ease have only a 90 round rimfire and 90 round CF  stage.  If my wife and I ever did go to Camp Perry (assuming it still operates) I have a Gold Cup 45ACP with red dot and my wife has a fixed commander size and we probably could find ammo that will work.  


Again:  for those able to utilize the merits of a worked over 1911, pistols like the Walther Q5 are a giggle.  Granted.  I had set up having a great smith craft a tailor-made-1911 for my wife, but it became apparent that even the very best 1911 would not significantly help her scores.  Not all of us are big with big hands and 15-15 eyesight.


Case for Q5 with Venom:  Neither of us use a conventional "box."  Do not see the point.  Just need pistol, magazines, ammo, LuLu, and way safely to carry on and off line.  A bag with ears and such augments.  The Walther box for the Q5 was designed to acomodate a Q5 with Venom sight.  One only needs to lift out a pre-cut chunk of foam and - presto - Q5 with Venom fits perfectly along with a bunch of magazines.


Weather tomorrow may not preclude stage one of finding/crafting ammo my wife can shoot as well as she is going to shoot.  

Hi Mac2, I was surprised when you went with the Walther when there was so much chatter recently about the SA XDM. Springer Precision sells a bunch of stuff that will make them a tack driver (just spend money) I never spent a dime accurizing mine but was still happy with the results out of the box. You get 3 different grips so one of them would probably fit you. The XDM also comes in 3 different calibers so you have some choices if you like the feel. I can see where the built in rail would be nice. I sort of worked my way around that. I like my Walther (not match) but was never able to get it to shoot like I wanted. All of them are fun to shoot. Enjoy your new toy. I didn't check if the "match" is on the approved list for EIC pistols. It would be nice if it was. But the dot would have to go. FYI. Go with 6.4 gr of Power Pistol and 115gr HAP bullets.

Len

XDM (they look a lot alike)

LenV wrote:Hi Mac2, I was surprised when you went with the Walther when there was so much chatter recently about the SA XDM. Springer Precision sells a bunch of stuff that will make them a tack driver (just spend money) I never spent a dime accurizing mine but was still happy with the results out of the box. You get 3 different grips so one of them would probably fit you. The XDM also comes in 3 different calibers so you have some choices if you like the feel. I can see where the built in rail would be nice. I sort of worked my way around that. I like my Walther (not match) but was never able to get it to shoot like I wanted. All of them are fun to shoot. Enjoy your new toy. I didn't check if the "match" is on the approved list for EIC pistols. It would be nice if it was. But the dot would have to go. FYI. Go with 6.4 gr of Power Pistol and 115gr HAP bullets.

Len

XDM (they look a lot alike)

I had the opportunity to shoot a XDM 5.25 in 45acp(motorcycle Dans gun). Was pretty surprised by it. shot a 265 for the EIC.

Dear Len:  Many thanks for the information on the XDM and loading.  Picture was a big help.  Have used the SIG rail mount to test various pistols.  

Most of the negative issues with RO 9mm using available slide mounted red-dot occurs at 25 yards.  With our relatively weak wrists, recoil, and high mounted dot, getting back on target at the short line has been unreliable.  Getting five shots off in the vicinity of the target does not always happen.  At 50 yards, our limitations show as excessive wobble - but careful pacing helps - I take almost the whole ten minutes.

With a two hand grip, the recoil is enough controlled that sights come back on target after recoil.  But this is Bullseye. . . . 

The XDM pictured appears to have the dot even farther above the bore than is the case with RO.  You are blessed with a build such that the high dot is not an issue.  To be determined/confirmed with extensive testing, but initial observation is that with the Q5 at 25 yards she will be able to hit the target more often mostly because of the lower dot and also because of the excellent fit of the grip.  

I will look into Power Pistol.   Have been using WSF 5 grains and HAP 115.  How well does Power Pistol meter?

It continues to be expected that this set of observations - much helped by Len's note and picture - will benefit those who are thinking about bullseye.  Without new people, and the expected fall out after the election, we will be in extra difficulty.

Power Pistol meters very well. I have several other loads for the 9 but that's my favorite.

Len

Thanks .   PP is a flake powder so it is especially interesting that you have found PP to meter OK.
I have also used 231/HP38 and a VV something that has a similar burn rate.  The lower specific energy of WSF (a ball powder) seems to leave a smaller void in the case and even if one could double charge one expects no pressure issues.

Mac

PP is a very fine powder (small flakes) it is not like 700x or Unique that meters so bad. The picture shows a little of my faith in this load. I use the same powder but only 5.1gr in my 147gr loads. 4756 also works if you find a supply of it.

The additional information about Power Pistol powder is valuable.  Thanks.

Looked at XDM information and then recalled that I had considered XDM.  [Not clear about the "SA" - single action?]

Background:  I bought XDS 4.0 in 9mm made in Croatia.  Can not remember why.  Awful trigger, but with a lot of care it seemed to be accurate when shot from rest.  Replaced all of the internal parts except for barrel, trigger blade, and magazine button assembly.  Most unpleasant to work on and a Michigan bear to reassemble.  Replaced rear sight too with Williams glow.  Trigger became acceptable.  Wife tried it and stated that she would fire it in IDPA, so I transfered it to her.  She shot it well, but finally decided that it just was not going to work in IDPA because of great difficulty with mag. button and changing magazines!  If it is not one thing it sure is another.  

So:  XDM 5.25 has, in my eyes, several strikes: made in Croatia, must replace internal parts to have a trigger and that is expected to require much more effort than changing internals in 1911, has a two side mag. button that is very difficult to use as is, and does not provide easy means to mount a low red-dot on slide - just to hit the high points.  

Q5 and Venom sight, and one can begin to shoot CF bullseye.  Even the needed tools and 3 magazines are included.

XDM For service pistol it is a very affordable option and plenty accurate. Even after trigger work and rebarrel still cheaper then a production ball gun

Christopher:  Who does trigger work on Q5?  For bullseye, force required could be a little 2.5 pounds-force.  My understanding that the most visible and horizontal spring could be replaced with a "weaker" spring to effect a lighter trigger.

Replacement barrels?  I never thought to check the usual places.  The stock barrel sure looks good inside and outside.  

I got my wife's Q5 sight (Venom) adjusted and she shot the Q5 with various ammo.  Using a simple support and even more simple ammo (Berry 115 HB - 4.9 WSF in mixed (but very clean) cases and CCI primer) she shot about a 2.5 inch group at 25 yards.  Lots of need to fire a couple and then dry-fire several and repeat, while standing.  

Please tell us about sources of after-market accessories for Q5.   Mac

Mac2 wrote:Christopher:  Who does trigger work on Q5?  For bullseye, force required could be a little 2.5 pounds-force.  My understanding that the most visible and horizontal spring could be replaced with a "weaker" spring to effect a lighter trigger.

Replacement barrels?  I never thought to check the usual places.  The stock barrel sure looks good inside and outside.  

I got my wife's Q5 sight (Venom) adjusted and she shot the Q5 with various ammo.  Using a simple support and even more simple ammo (Berry 115 HB - 4.9 WSF in mixed (but very clean) cases and CCI primer) she shot about a 2.5 inch group at 25 yards.  Lots of need to fire a couple and then dry-fire several and repeat, while standing.  

Please tell us about sources of after-market accessories for Q5.   Mac

i was talking about the XDM. could always have someone who knows what they are doing weld the barrel and refit it.

Oh my.   I thought you were writing about the Q5.  Indeed, the Croatian pistols need a lot of work to get usable as delivered.   Silk purses can be made out of a lot of stuff.  A point about the Q5 is that a purchaser just needs to add a red-dot sight to have a good bullseye pistol.  Tools to attach sight are included as are three magazines.

The cost and effort to have a 1911 or Croatian ready is substantial - I expect off-putting to many who might otherwise be attracted to bullseye. 

Thanks for making clear that, with significant effort and some expense, a Croatian pistol (like yours) can be OK.

Mac2,  What Chris said about accurizing parts available may have been misleading. As I mentioned above The XDM shot satisfactory straight out of the box. You DO NOT have to go to considerable effort and expense to make the pistol shoot. The picture below is of the first 8 rounds out the pistol. Steel sights at 25yds timed fire . Oh btw, SA stands for Springfield Armory.

The only thing i didn't like about the XDM and probably would be true for another Poly gun was the weight. Bit more recoil as the mag empties

Seems the xdm5.25 faired well enough at Perry. How'd the walther do?

Once again Len added clarification.  The XDM 5.25 insides must then not be at all like the insides of the XDs 4" that had to be almost re-manufactured in order to work.  I am surprised for the pistols of the same series to range from dreadful (but curable) insides to OK-as-is.

And then - late to the party - today in an NRA publication an advertisement showing a new XDM with a cut-slide sporting a Venom sight was seen!  So, in a year or two when prices on the Q5 and on the new sight-worthy XDM have arrived at steady-state AND experts such are on this list have shot/evaluated both, we will be better able to estimate the value of each platform.  The fallout from the national election might make this moot.  The latest rumor is to require the same $200 tax stamp on every firearm transfer that is now required for NFA transfers.

Hope to hear some measured numbers about the new XDM.  While I rate the Q5 as good (and great value), it is possible that the new XDM will be excellent and good value.  Has anyone tested a new XDM?

Somewhere on the forum frank poster some photos of an AMU XDM 5.25 in 9mm where Adam shot like a 96+ slow fire and high 90s or cleans for timed and rapids

What Chris said.

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t5854-springfield-xdm-for-camp-perry