Advice requested - how to improve

I had my brother stand next to me as I fired off five rounds from my Salyer.  He held my Canon camera set to capture a video of me and the gun.  This was shooting two-handed.  Eventually I'll have him film me shooting one handed.

While watching the video, I struggled to understand what was going on, so I slowed it down to 1/4 speed, so I could then play it back frame by frame and see both what I was doing, and what the gun was doing.

I've got lots of questions that I'm not going to ask.  If anyone can offer feedback on what I'm doing, I'd appreciate it.  The closest thing I've got to a "coach" is you guys. 

Ammo was Magnus, #801 I think, with what was supposed to be 4.0 grains of Bullseye powder.  




Video at normal speed:  https://youtu.be/_PBwIEVb6NE

not working

Len, try it again - I changed the privacy settings from "private" to "unlisted".
...oops, also need to save the settings change on YouTube.   Done, for both videos.  I hope.

That third shot was charged more than the others - at least I’d guess so. I could be wrong. Be careful when reloading. If you have a problem and start moving pieces of brass around or short stroking the press because there’s an issue you need to stop and check and be sure what’s charged with what. When in doubt dump it out and recharge the shell.

Tim:H11 wrote:That third shot was charged more than the others - at least I’d guess so. I could be wrong. Be careful when reloading. If you have a problem and start moving pieces of brass around or short stroking the press because there’s an issue you need to stop and check and be sure what’s charged with what. When in doubt dump it out and recharge the shell.

Kinda what I see too!

Pretty stout recoil on several for a 2 hand grip

I remember having loading problems the last time I loaded 45.  Each time I dumped the powder back into the hopper, and ran those cases through the press again.  After the second time this happened, I went back to loading one round at a time in the press.  For me, it's easier to find issues when I just do one round at a time, so I can "feel" the press better, and take the shell case in and out to see what was done, and weigh the charge that was loaded.  The variation in charge weight was never more than +/- 0.1 grain for all the times I've done this.

For a test, I deliberately loaded "empty" and "double charged" cases to test the Lockout Die, which locked up properly each time.  I don't yet know of ways to get a "little" too much or too little powder into a case, unless the powder hopper isn't functioning properly...?


I haven't mounted it yet, but I bought one of those mirror kits that is supported by one of the dies, and allows me to see almost directly down into the case.  That is going on the press as soon as I get home, once I find the best place to mount it.  I like the idea of "seeing" the load each time before I put a bullet onto the case.

With the auto index kit in place, if I have a concern, I will empty out the shell and put it aside to re-load later.

------------------------------

The slow motion video shows me lots of things, many of which I don't know how to correct.  

Every time the gun fires, I get pushed backwards from the recoil.  Makes sense, but I wasn't aware of how far back I was being moved.  Maybe I should lean forward a little more.  Maybe when I'm using one hand, my body will be in a better position to absorb the recoil.

Last time I made this kind of video, two years ago, the gun was obviously rotating inside of my hold.  Now, thanks to a better grip, and the Sharkskin grips, my hands seem locked to the gun.

My right arm flexes as the gun fires.  I'm not sure if this is good or bad; some people say the arm should be straight out, and others say to have it slightly bent (which is certainly more comfortable for me).  You guys can't help me, as I'm using too many arms.

My wrists.....  yuck.  So many people say to "lock your wrists", but I obviously don't know how.  Gun fires, wrists pivot upward, then return.  I'm sure I'm missing something about how to do this.  I don't know how to lock my wrist for one-hand or two-hand shooting.  

Steadiness - the gun is now much more steady in my hands than the last time I tried this.

Regaining shooting position - I suck.  The gun is supposed to go back to where it started, and stop.  Maybe this just means another decade or two of practice, but there's no way to simulate it with dry fire.  Maybe someone can explain how to learn to do this properly.

Video - I really should use a camera designed for "slow motion video"; my Canon G7X Pro Mk II, along with Apple's "Final Cut Pro" editor allow me to do this, sort of, but the shell casing flying through the air is just a blur.  It's also difficult to see exactly where the slide is at any given moment.  Not sure if I'll ever be able to do this as well as I want....

Hi Mike, if I were shooting 2 handed and want to control recoil and be more accurate, I'd can the isoceles stance and go to the modified weaver stance ( Chapman). Here's a link  https://www.pewpewtactical.com/shooting-stance-grip/
  I noticed your eye blinked on the first 2 shots, whether or not they were before, during or after your trigger pull.
  With the Chapman I could lay my head on my shoulder, line up sights and feel a lot steadier when shooting for accuracy.
Stan

Mike,
why are you doing this with .45?? There is a reason they make .22 conversions and other 22's. If you are blinking then you are flinching and need more time with a 22. Buy a case of .22lr and teach yourself how to make one perfectly called shot in the middle, if it takes another case, so be it. There should be no surprises when you look in the spotting scope. then TELL US what works for you instead of asking us what you should do. We cannot align the sights in the middle or squeeze the trigger for you.
You can see everything happening with a 22. 
A perfect shot will be learned with a 22 well before it's learned with a 45, especially with inconsistent ammo. You need to appreciate the 22 for the learning tool that it is.

robert84010 wrote:Mike,
why are you doing this with .45?? There is a reason they make .22 conversions and other 22's. If you are blinking then you are flinching and need more time with a 22. Buy a case of .22lr and teach yourself how to make one perfectly called shot in the middle, if it takes another case, so be it. There should be no surprises when you look in the spotting scope. then TELL US what works for you instead of asking us what you should do. We cannot align the sights in the middle or squeeze the trigger for you.
You can see everything happening with a 22. 
A perfect shot will be learned with a 22 well before it's learned with a 45, especially with inconsistent ammo. You need to appreciate the 22 for the learning tool that it is.

What he said

I ordered, and just received, six bricks of CCI 22 LR standard velocity.  As of ten days ago or so, I have my new Aimpoint H-2 mounted to the Model 41.

I agree with you guys, but I also enjoy shooting more of my guns, not just the 22.

I will watch the video again - didn't realize I was blinking!!  You have good eyes!

robert84010 wrote:Mike,
why are you doing this with .45?? There is a reason they make .22 conversions and other 22's. If you are blinking then you are flinching and need more time with a 22. Buy a case of .22lr and teach yourself how to make one perfectly called shot in the middle, if it takes another case, so be it. There should be no surprises when you look in the spotting scope. then TELL US what works for you instead of asking us what you should do. We cannot align the sights in the middle or squeeze the trigger for you.
You can see everything happening with a 22. 
A perfect shot will be learned with a 22 well before it's learned with a 45, especially with inconsistent ammo. You need to appreciate the 22 for the learning tool that it is.

High speed video to the rescue....

I played the video in slow motion on my laptop, moving forward essentially one frame at a time.  You are correct, I am blinking for every shot, but I don't start the blink until after the gun has fired, and the barrel has come up about 20 degrees or so.  All shots should have been surprise shots, the way I was shooting, just gradually adding pressure to the trigger until it fired. Since the video is already set to 1/4 speed, you can click the 1/4 speed setting from YouTube, and see the video at 1/16th speed to verify this  Or, I can create a "frame grab" from just before and just after the gun fires.

Looking around on the internet, I found this:

Mike, even so I would take the advice given, it's very good advice.  Train and practice with your 22 until you can consistently call your shots.  Once you do you can take your 45 out of the safe and look at it, put it back and continue to train with the 22 until you can tell what went wrong based on your own analysis of your shot process and your results.

Trigger time should be:
90% dry fire
 9% 22
 1% CF or .45

Years ago LtC Miller had me shoot 22 (High Standard) almost exclusively.  The Colt OMM revolver was next priority.  The 45 was almost not shot for maybe 2 years.

Some great help here from guys that shoot very good, if you want to make a ragged hole. 
  Think of yourself as a Ransom Rest, and you'll be back on target every time. Go to that link I posted and get your 45 out and try that stance, you'll feel like you're more solid with it. Then I would dry fire with it tonite for 10mins, then do it again until you're comfortable with it. I bet you'll be able to call your shots in a dot on the wall perfectly more than with the isoceles stance.
 Stan

dronning wrote:Mike, even so I would take the advice given, it's very good advice.  Train and practice with your 22 until you can consistently call your shots.  Once you do you can take your 45 out of the safe and look at it, put it back and continue to train with the 22 until you can tell what went wrong based on your own analysis of your shot process and your results.

Trigger time should be:
90% dry fire
 9% 22
 1% CF or .45

I do understand what you mean, and why, but I'm not a younger guy trying to get involved in Bullseye competition.  I've been shooting my Model 41, a Colt Combat Commander, and a S&W Model 29 since the late 1970's.  I'm now 74, and "losing" body strength, not gaining.  Dry firing made all the difference, and I'm doing better now than anytime before.  I'm also reloading, and I'm enjoying shooting all these guns, and more.  I used to enjoy "Target Shooting".  You guys are doing the closest thing to what I've enjoyed for 40 years now.  I learn a lot from all these discussions, even when they're about things I know nothing about.

If all I shoot is 22, there's not much reloading to be done, and while I've gotten better, there's more yet to learn.  I don't want to give up all the enjoyment I get out of shooting, in order to possibly improve.  In my opinion, I'll improve a lot better and faster by doing MORE, not less.  

Regarding your percentages, when I go to the range with my 22, I'll shoot four or eight targets, 10 rounds each.  Less than 100 rounds.  I dry fire usually every day, half hour sessions, about a minute "on", then resting for a minute.  For dry fire to be ten times more than the small amount of 22 shooting I'm doing, I would be spending a huge part of my day dry firing.

Bottom line, I will do what you have suggested, but in addition I will do the other things I enjoy going to the range for, which includes getting my Model 52 to behave better, start learning how to shoot a Henry 22 rifle, get out my old revolvers (38 and 44) and fire them more often, and also pick one gun to start using one-handed only.  I've got a 9mm Taurus PT92s that I rarely use - maybe that's the gun that I'll start using exclusively one handed.  I've also got a High Standard 22 that is sitting around unused - maybe I'll use that gun instead.      ......I just got back from an out of town trip to my brother's.  Lots to think about........

I'm not a bullseye expert, so I don't have anything to add on the pistol technique.

As far as the video itself, I think it's a great idea and potentially a good way to learn what's going on.

If you can increase the frame rate of the video capture in camera, you'll get better slow motion on playback. I think you can capture video at 60fps on that camera.

Also, I didn't need to sit there for the first 30 seconds of the video! Almost Hitchcock-like suspense waiting for that first shot.

Overall, a very interesting study.

Thanks!  I think it's the only way to really "see" what I'm doing.

Yes, the maximum for the G7x Mk II is 59 frames per second, which is what I think the camera was set for.  Not sure.  I just found how to improve the results from my video editor (he used Adobe Premiere, but I think I can do it with Final Cut Pro.  My iPhone has a mode for 120 frames per second, but I trusted the Canon more to get a decent video.  

(Maybe I can capture high speed better with my Nikon D750, using a very high shutter speed.  Maybe that will capture a clear image of the ejected shell?  I don't think it will show the bullet being fired, but that would be nice, and I could verify to my own mind that the bullet has left the barrel before the barrel starts to move upwards.)

Sorry about the wasted 30 seconds - when I switched my editor to 1/4 speed, I forgot how that would make the preliminary stuff so much longer - I could have cropped it out.  The actual video was much, much longer - I started the camera recording, handed it to my brother, and waited until he said he was ready, which also got recorded...   boy, do we both sound silly talking at 1/4 speed, and I think it's cool to listen to the slide moving forward before I shoot.  

(I was shooting at where the target would have been, had I used one.  It was an empty frame.  I saw a spot where the bullseye should have been, and kept my red dot as steady as I could.)

I found lots of stuff before posting here, and was thankful that the gun wasn't slipping in my hand.  Until someone mentioned blinking, I never even checked for that - but I now can see exactly when I blink, every time, and while I don't know how much time it happened after the gun fired, I can see the angle upwards of the gun as the eye is closing.  

I also was bummed out about how much my wrists rotate - I watched a video last night on how to minimize that.  That's not a problem on my 22 obviously.

Maybe I'll set up a tripod next time, and record myself at my home range.  That way I can experiment with the settings, and post something here about what worked best.

Rather than the side shot, shoot your video from the oblique.  Just slightly ahead of the muzzle.

Interesting idea - if the camera is on a tripod, I guess that would be safe.  I'll have to ask the club for permission first.

SonOfAGun wrote:........If you can increase the frame rate of the video capture in camera, you'll get better slow motion on playback. I think you can capture video at 60fps on that camera.......

Your suggestion led to a very useful result.  I can do this with my Nikon D750:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn0GrU2RwaI

• Filmed on a Nikon D750 with the 
  
• Nikkor 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 G VR lens. 
  
• Settings: 1080p 60fps Aperture f/7.1 Shutter 1/1000 ISO 1600 Sharpening 3.00
  
• Rendered in Final Cut Pro X at 10% slow motion.
  

I doubt that will catch a bullet in motion, but it ought to do fine with a shooter and the gun!  
If it can freeze a hummingbird in flight, shooting a gun as it fires should be easy.

I'm not going to come at this from a Bullseye perspective, because it's not really BE and I can't see my way to offering BE advice without a target to look at. I've seen shooters with perfect form (2 hands and 1) that couldn't hit water falling out of a boat, and folks that looked like clowns that...well, they sure as hell didn't shoot like clowns.

(1) The reason you're rocking back and forth is your feet. I'd bet that you're standing with your feet square to the target, and your weight at normal standing balance. When the gun recoils, the force sets you back on your heels, because you're in the absolute worst position to resist it. You've got zero mechanical advantage, and no way to resist that push other than moving your center of mass after the fact. During recovery, your weight moves back to neutral, and then a bit forward, causing you to wobble as you overcorrect.

What you want is to stand so that somebody could give you a good hard shove, without you falling over backwards.

Try putting your left foot slightly forward--usually just enough that the toe of your right foot is in line with the heel of your left. Then bend your knees slightly until you can feel your weight shift to the balls of your feet. I usually suggest not bending the back unless you're doing Spray and Pray games, because it can cause a few aches and pains, and is a little harder to point naturally with than keeping your upper body straight and bringing the pistol up to your line of sight.

(2) It looks like you're gripping the hell out of the pistol. I can see the tendons in your wrists sticking out. Unfortunately, your hands are the only part of your arms that are actually in the game. Forearms, upper arms, and shoulders are just along for the ride. Get your arms straight, and push out at the target--without locking your elbows. This gets your muscles tensed  and ready to resist recoil. Remember, you can't pull the gun down to control recoil (you'd be aiming at the ground in short order), you have to achieve "intensity of position" by pushing out.

It's not about muscle strength. I'm not a big guy, and I don't have huge ripping muscles. I'm not even particularly strong. But I can outperform guys twice my size because my muscles are in the right state to control the pistol. Now, muscle strength does confer a competitive advantage, but only after technique is mastered.

(3) This one is brutal, but must be said: Blinking is bloody blinking, no matter when it blinkin' happens. Before the shot? Bad. During the shot? Bad. After the shot? Bad. It doesn't matter what some dude on r/Guns says. The R doesn't stand for Reddit.

Follow-through is the act of applying the other fundamentals of pistol shooting before, during, and after the shot.

PS--if you get something abusive like a .44 Magnum, a bunch of the above stance advice doesn't apply. Similarly, if you start to do some of these things, get better recoil control, and discover that your back, elbows, shoulders, etc, start hurting--STOP. There's a time and a technique for controlling recoil, and a time for absorbing recoil, and you don't want to get the two mixed up. I once switched from my .45 to my .44 Mag and, for some reason, decided to keep my shoulders high and tight, my elbows pushed forward, and my back straight. The operative word there is "once".

Thanks, keyholed.  I printed out what you wrote.  Will reply later today.

I had a short time at the range, but got to try out some of your suggestions.  25 yards, same as always, and a lot more time than ammo.....

My right foot is already a little behind the left foot, so I'm already doing that.  I tried to lean forward just a bit, but it felt uncomfortable.  Bending my knees as you suggested was good - I felt "planted" more, probably because of what you said about weight distribution.  Bending them even more was bad - felt uncomfortable.

Yes, I bring the pistol up to my line of sight, and don't lower or twist my head.

As to "gripping the hell out of the pistol", I'm not really applying a lot of grip to the pistol, but by tensing up my muscles as you observed, I thought that might help lock my wrists.  As you suggested, this morning I definitely did not do that - right arm was "straight", but not locked.  I feel more comfortable when there is some "give" in my arm.  

I don't understand what you mean, achieving "intensity of position" by pushing out.  Since I wasn't going to "tense up" as I did before, my arms just went to a comfortable position, right arm just about "straight" (which did push the gun forward).  That felt comfortable, and it seems to have worked better too.  

Blinking - I used my Model 28 Highway Patrolman today, and as far as I can tell, I'm not blinking at all, but only the video will prove it.  I used my old practice technique, loading only one round into the cylinder, spinning the cylinder without looking, so I had no idea of the gun would go click or bang, and tried to get my body to do the right thing so when the gun did go bang I wouldn't mess up the shot.

Follow through - I did what I do with the Model 52, after the gun goes click/bang whatever, to just hold it there without moving any part of my body.  I dry-fire that way, and try to make it something I do automatically.  

For my last target (at right) I loaded three rounds in the cylinder.  Because the Model 28 is heavy, after every shot I lowered the gun, rested it, took a couple of breaths, then raised the gun for the next shot.  For the first three rounds I could feel the gun moving upwards as I shot and the three holes were high.  I stopped, dry-fired for a while until the front sight didn't move when I fired, and then took the remaining 9 shots.  

Ammo was what I use for my M-52.  It seemed to work well.  

Nothing like one "big ragged hole" .......  which is now my goal.



To my eyes, the target at the left looks good, but it's only five rounds.  The target at right (excluding the three rounds that were caused by my body misbehaving) looks more or less like what I have been doing, making me a "9 shooter" as someone once said.  I would like to get all ten rounds inside the "ten ring".  With practice, and the help from you and others here, I expect to do that.

(.....I dunno about bullseye shooting, one hand.  I'm certainly not going to be able to do that with the Highway Patrolman, way, way too heavy.  My Model 41 or my High Standard is going to be my bullseye gun, from now on.  I'll post one of those targets next week, which will just show how bad I am.  Maybe I'll simply bring the High Standard to the range with me from now on, and shoot one handed exclusively with it.)

Some things are going to feel unnatural, especially if you've been doing them some other way for awhile.

Leaning--I only lean forward or bend my back when I'm shooting something that recoils enough to actually hurt me. Personally, that means .44 Mag and up. Otherwise, my back is at the natural straight position, no bend in either the vertebrae or at the pelvis. This doesn't look as tacticool, but hey, it works for Doug Koenig just fine.

Grip--Inside of 10 yards, I squeeze as hard as I can. The gun trembles--badly--but I don't particularly care. Outside of 10 yards, I relax just enough to let the trembling almost stop. Gripping the hell out of a pistol is a good thing. Use your hand muscles, but learn to grip with your wrist as well.

Intensity of Position--I think I stole that descriptor from Zins. It's just about a perfect way of thinking about it. It's not really tense, or trying to strain or lock anything. Just focusing on maintaining that position through recoil.

Bent Arms--Doug Koenig bends his arms a little, too. Doug's not a huge guy, and he doesn't have monster hands like JM or Bill Jordan, but he's got some mass on me and I'm pretty sure he does more PT. He uses the bent arms to absorb recoil and shoot faster. Personally, I think that my straightening my arms puts me at the same "spring rate" as him. Mileage varies.

Blinking--It's going to be different with different guns. Sometimes, guys can learn bad shot anticipation on a .22.

Left Target--There are two groups. One is the 4 at bottom, the other is the 8 rounds that are higher. Maybe that's a flinch upwards (I've thrown some very neat little clusters of shots), or maybe it means your zero is a little off. The only way to tell is to get real good at calling shots. Other thing is, just because you can shoot a group x" in diameter, doesn't mean you can do that with every gun, even if both have good sights and triggers and such.

Mike
It appears you have a good handle on the general skills of the pistol shot.  Maybe now you should look into the individual components in detail, one at a time.  Like recoil management.  Experiment with grip and stance for the only purpose of minimizing the recoil and it's effect on your stance and grip.  I mean learn what it takes you to be as much a repeatable steady gun holder as possible.  Shoot some shots safely and think only what that recoil does to you and try to minimize it.  Forget about the target for a bit.  Safely of course.  Later on marry what you learn to sighting, etc....

More as I think of it and might lose my thoughts tomorrow. 
Blinking.  Shoot some shots safely with the sole purpose of keeping your eyes open all the time.  Learn and combine later.  Build it one step at a time.

Recoil exercise above.  Break down position into components one at a time.  Feet, knees, lean, push gun forward vs just holding it up, elbows, wrist angle, etc ....

Sometimes "pick up gun, shoot gun, put gun down", needs more.