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Looking for help reloading 9mm.
by jlow 1/6/2019, 6:36 pm
First topic message reminder :
First of all, new to the board and I am not a bullseye shooter but I am here because I know you guys can be a wealth of knowledge so I am hoping you can help me.
The gun I am reloading for is a SIG MPX PCC pistol. This is a semi-auto with an 8” barrel.
I have over 10 years of experience doing precision reloading but only for centerfire rifles, so a lot of the things we do like annealing, turning necks, etc. do not translate to pistol reloading. In terms of pistol reloading, I have done many tens of thousands of rounds but they are plinking and not precision ammo.
Currently my load is what I use for my handgun - range pickup brass, Rem 1 ½ primers, 3.2 grain of Tightgroup, COAL 1.147", and 147grain Precision Delta FMJ. This load shoots reasonable in my PCC i.e 3-4” groups at 50 yards. What I am hoping is to shrink it down to a consistent 2” group.
Looking at an article from Accurateshooter.com on precision handloading, I realize that I need consistent brass – to that end, I have sorted my brass by headstamp. Currently using FC since I have a lot of that.
I also see the importance of optimizing taper crimp – to that end, I am using a Hornady adjustable taper crimp die and have done optimizing studies looking at different degree of crimp.
I see the importance of uniform COAL – to that end, I have started to uniform my sized cases using a Lyman case trimmer. This is where my main question is:
1) Is trimming brass to consistent COAL a good idea for precision?
2) If you trim, is chamfer/deburr (which is required for rifle brass trimming) a good idea?
3) Is trimming slightly shorter than SAAMI a bad idea?
Of course any additional suggestion as to pitfalls of what I am currently doing would be appreciated. I realized that I am not using dedicated brass, optimal powder/brass/bullet for absolute precision, but at least at present, I am looking for ideas of what I can do to optimize the current load.
First of all, new to the board and I am not a bullseye shooter but I am here because I know you guys can be a wealth of knowledge so I am hoping you can help me.
The gun I am reloading for is a SIG MPX PCC pistol. This is a semi-auto with an 8” barrel.
I have over 10 years of experience doing precision reloading but only for centerfire rifles, so a lot of the things we do like annealing, turning necks, etc. do not translate to pistol reloading. In terms of pistol reloading, I have done many tens of thousands of rounds but they are plinking and not precision ammo.
Currently my load is what I use for my handgun - range pickup brass, Rem 1 ½ primers, 3.2 grain of Tightgroup, COAL 1.147", and 147grain Precision Delta FMJ. This load shoots reasonable in my PCC i.e 3-4” groups at 50 yards. What I am hoping is to shrink it down to a consistent 2” group.
Looking at an article from Accurateshooter.com on precision handloading, I realize that I need consistent brass – to that end, I have sorted my brass by headstamp. Currently using FC since I have a lot of that.
I also see the importance of optimizing taper crimp – to that end, I am using a Hornady adjustable taper crimp die and have done optimizing studies looking at different degree of crimp.
I see the importance of uniform COAL – to that end, I have started to uniform my sized cases using a Lyman case trimmer. This is where my main question is:
1) Is trimming brass to consistent COAL a good idea for precision?
2) If you trim, is chamfer/deburr (which is required for rifle brass trimming) a good idea?
3) Is trimming slightly shorter than SAAMI a bad idea?
Of course any additional suggestion as to pitfalls of what I am currently doing would be appreciated. I realized that I am not using dedicated brass, optimal powder/brass/bullet for absolute precision, but at least at present, I am looking for ideas of what I can do to optimize the current load.
jlow- Posts : 177
Join date : 2019-01-06
Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.
by 9146gt 1/13/2019, 8:12 am
Plunk and twist test is probably the most important test on a PCC style gun...many have a short feebore.
Tom
Tom
9146gt- Posts : 61
Join date : 2012-03-21
Location : NC
Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.
by jlow 1/13/2019, 11:06 am
I have done the plunk and twist test, and this gun has a very long freebore, long enough that I could not reach it with a really long load. I asked this question here and received a good response here:
https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t11217-sig-mpx-9mm-barrel-plunk-test-strange-results?highlight=strange
https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t11217-sig-mpx-9mm-barrel-plunk-test-strange-results?highlight=strange
jlow- Posts : 177
Join date : 2019-01-06
Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.
by jlow 1/13/2019, 5:32 pm
I have done some research on the Hodgdon website and found a load for 115gr Speer Red dot JHP which I presume is close to the Zero's 115gr JHP. Looks like they recommend a COAL of 1.125" and titegroup range betwee 4.5gr (low) to 4.8gr (max) for an MV between 1,135 and 1,258fps.
Anyone use something like this and I wonder how well that works?
Anyone use something like this and I wonder how well that works?
jlow- Posts : 177
Join date : 2019-01-06
Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.
by AHI 1/13/2019, 7:40 pm
Delite
Last edited by AHI on 1/14/2019, 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
AHI- Posts : 38
Join date : 2012-03-11
Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.
by AHI 1/13/2019, 8:31 pm
delete
Last edited by AHI on 1/14/2019, 5:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
AHI- Posts : 38
Join date : 2012-03-11
Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.
by jlow 1/14/2019, 6:11 am
AHI thanks for writing in. A couple of points.
1) The MPX always had a 16” barrel option. AFAIK, the new PCC version is only different barrel wise by having the barrel being 16” when the comp is removed.
2) I am sure there are other PCC and other bullets with good precision but that does not help me. I am looking specifically for reloading information for Zero 115gr JHP for a SIG MPX.
1) The MPX always had a 16” barrel option. AFAIK, the new PCC version is only different barrel wise by having the barrel being 16” when the comp is removed.
2) I am sure there are other PCC and other bullets with good precision but that does not help me. I am looking specifically for reloading information for Zero 115gr JHP for a SIG MPX.
jlow- Posts : 177
Join date : 2019-01-06
Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.
by AHI 1/14/2019, 7:03 am
delite
Last edited by AHI on 1/14/2019, 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
AHI- Posts : 38
Join date : 2012-03-11
Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.
by jlow 1/14/2019, 7:10 am
Maybe they changed the rifling but there is nothing in their announcement to suggest that. Regardless there is nothing I can do to change that.
I have my barrel and I have the Zero's on order so at least in the short term, I have to work with that.
Will try what you suggested if I don't get any more info. Thanks.
I have my barrel and I have the Zero's on order so at least in the short term, I have to work with that.
Will try what you suggested if I don't get any more info. Thanks.
jlow- Posts : 177
Join date : 2019-01-06
Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.
by jlow 1/19/2019, 7:48 am
Just want to give thanks to those who suggested trying the Zero 115gr JHP.
Well I went out yesterday in the cold and did a powder weight charge study with the Zero 115 gr JHP using Titegroup - pretty happy! Got two charge that gave me sub 2" 5 round groups at 50 yards. Best group was 1.8"!
Well I went out yesterday in the cold and did a powder weight charge study with the Zero 115 gr JHP using Titegroup - pretty happy! Got two charge that gave me sub 2" 5 round groups at 50 yards. Best group was 1.8"!
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Last edited by jlow on 1/19/2019, 10:45 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Adding image)
jlow- Posts : 177
Join date : 2019-01-06
Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.
by SmokinNJokin 1/19/2019, 12:38 pm
I really think a zero 125 or 147 jhp will show even better results with your barrel twist rate. I would also recommend you test with 10 or 20 shot groups, they will be bigger but I think they will give you a lot more telling info.
SmokinNJokin- Posts : 851
Join date : 2015-07-27
Location : Wisconsin Rapids
Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.
by jlow 1/19/2019, 12:49 pm
That may be so but the practical side of things is I really do not need sub-MOA groups for what I need this gun for. So no real need to go to the n th degree in terms of precision.
Just to reiterate, these will be used for 2-gun matches. Currently I shoot an AR with Russian steel case ammo that groups about 3-4" at 100 yards. Last weekend, shooting the AR, I was ranked 6th but with the lest number of points down - 13. So if my PCC can shoot as well, it is all I need.
FWIW, when I brought the bullets, I told the folks there what I was using the bullets for and they said that the most accurate bullet in their hands was the 115gr JHP.
Just to reiterate, these will be used for 2-gun matches. Currently I shoot an AR with Russian steel case ammo that groups about 3-4" at 100 yards. Last weekend, shooting the AR, I was ranked 6th but with the lest number of points down - 13. So if my PCC can shoot as well, it is all I need.
FWIW, when I brought the bullets, I told the folks there what I was using the bullets for and they said that the most accurate bullet in their hands was the 115gr JHP.
jlow- Posts : 177
Join date : 2019-01-06
Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.
by Asa Yam 2/3/2019, 1:25 pm
There are examples of Sierra bullets being used in long range applications, despite passing through the transonic range:jlow wrote:Going transonic and affecting bullet stability is a well known phenomena in precision rifle. A classic example is shooting Sierra Match King 168gr .308 bullets at extended ranges i.e. 1K - not recommended because of this specific phenomena.
- 1000+ yard competition, .308 Winchester cartridge. Bullet of choice: 190 Sierra;
- "Cooper's Challenge": Shoot 20 bullets into a 20" circle at 1000 yards, in 20 seconds. First broken by an AR-15 and Black Hills 77 grain loads. See https://www.dlsports.com/signature_firearms_ar15.html for more details;
- US Army M-24 Rifle, Iraq, September, 2005. 1250 Meter hit on an insurgent. Ammo used: M118LR (175 grain Sierra load). Yes, it was a kill. https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2013/9/12/advances-in-us-sniping-ammunition-from-vietnam-to-afghanistan/
It should be noted the 168 Sierra was never designed as a long range bullet, but rather as a projectile for 300 meter competition. According to research by the US Army, the projectile is dynamically unstable, and can stop flying point-first BEFORE going transonic. When fired from a .308 Winchester around 2650 FPS, this occurs sometime after 900 yards. Sierra's current (post- Sedalia, MO production) 180 grain .30 caliber bullet reportedly shows similar behavior.
Asa Yam- Posts : 197
Join date : 2018-09-15
Re: Looking for help reloading 9mm.
by jlow 2/3/2019, 3:11 pm
Thanks. I am aware of all these things as I am a precision reloader for long range centerfire competitions.Asa Yam wrote:There are examples of Sierra bullets being used in long range applications, despite passing through the transonic range:jlow wrote:Going transonic and affecting bullet stability is a well known phenomena in precision rifle. A classic example is shooting Sierra Match King 168gr .308 bullets at extended ranges i.e. 1K - not recommended because of this specific phenomena.
- 1000+ yard competition, .308 Winchester cartridge. Bullet of choice: 190 Sierra;
- "Cooper's Challenge": Shoot 20 bullets into a 20" circle at 1000 yards, in 20 seconds. First broken by an AR-15 and Black Hills 77 grain loads. See https://www.dlsports.com/signature_firearms_ar15.html for more details;
- US Army M-24 Rifle, Iraq, September, 2005. 1250 Meter hit on an insurgent. Ammo used: M118LR (175 grain Sierra load). Yes, it was a kill. https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2013/9/12/advances-in-us-sniping-ammunition-from-vietnam-to-afghanistan/
It should be noted the 168 Sierra was never designed as a long range bullet, but rather as a projectile for 300 meter competition. According to research by the US Army, the projectile is dynamically unstable, and can stop flying point-first BEFORE going transonic. When fired from a .308 Winchester around 2650 FPS, this occurs sometime after 900 yards. Sierra's current (post- Sedalia, MO production) 180 grain .30 caliber bullet reportedly shows similar behavior.
jlow- Posts : 177
Join date : 2019-01-06
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