I'm having fun looking over the fence at Service Rifle/High Power

I have been temporarily sidelined from Bullseye competition but try to get a training/test session a week at a local indoor club. Since this is a modern and new establishment they have vendors come in to show Gucci products and their shop also assembles ARs for people. Due to this I have had several AR type rifles handed to me to try a few shots with. Not knowing really how to shoot a rifle but having been around 10 meter Air Rifle, 3P Rifle shooters and fascinated by Service Rifle shooters, I tried to match their offhand position (come on, it's a rifle at 25 yards. Shooting off a bench at that distance seems silly). I found trying to make a good group offhand with a rifle a lot of fun.

This led to buying an AR with iron sights from a friend and a couple of Zediker books to go with my AMU Rifle book. The more I learn about Service Rifle the more I see similarities with with Bullseye. Gear and load have to be able to get the job done, work on the shot process. Dry fire a lot.

While I haven't invested in jacket, sling, scope or mat I look forward to seeing if I can stay on paper across the course.

While precision pistol is my primary sport, rifle at 200/300/600 yards looks like a great challenge. I'm looking forward to a day at CMP Talladega.

Any suggestions or recommendations on improving rifle skills? Any traps or possible rifle induced bad habits to avoid bringing to pistol?


edit - I really like this video of an interview of National champion CPT Freeman of the USAR Service Rifle Team shooting a High Power competition with Issued rifles and ammunition. A good demonstration of what gear and loads do to add points.

I have shot a bit of service rifle. Standing is the most analagous to bullseye and your bullseye experience will give you an advantage.

Prone hurts.

Project Appleseed. www.appleseedinfo.org

A weekend of rifle marksmanship training, 3 position based on the military AQT - just like high power competition so 99% of what you learn will directly apply to high power.  I don't know of any other program that will teach you as much about the fundamentals of 3 position rifle marksmanship as quickly as Appleseed. If your instructors are good (and most are) you will learn an amazing amount in two days, and learn some things about our heritage that will simply inspire you.

Don't know where you are in GA but looks like they regularly hold events in Canton, Martin, Dublin, and Summerville.

"Prone hurts"

For me getting up from prone hurts.

Steve, John and i were talking  about heading to Talladega to shoot our M1As. Sounds like a.road trip

TexasShooter wrote:Project Appleseed. www.appleseedinfo.org

A weekend of rifle marksmanship training, 3 position based on the military AQT - just like high power competition so 99% of what you learn will directly apply to high power.  I don't know of any other program that will teach you as much about the fundamentals of 3 position rifle marksmanship as quickly as Appleseed. If your instructors are good (and most are) you will learn an amazing amount in two days, and learn some things about our heritage that will simply inspire you.

Don't know where you are in GA but looks like they regularly hold events in Canton, Martin, Dublin, and Summerville.

+++++1  I can't say enough good things about this program!  I went because I was getting into 3 gun and hadn't done any rifle shooting before.  Well I went from that weekend training and purchased a service rifle and almost immediately made Sharpshooter and was on my way to Master until an old neck injury started acting up and kept me from shooting prone.  Too late I had the competition bug and jumped right into bullseye.
- Dave

Oh and 3 gun just fell by the wayside once I started precision shooting.

You might want to look at a scoped service rifle. I didn't start shooting SR until I was in my 50's and really struggled seeing iron sights especially at the end of  the day in an across the course match. Going to the scope showed me that I could shoot I just couldn't see.

Shoot somewhere where it's windy at 600 yds. Best way to learn the wind is to shoot in it. Try to find an experienced shooter who will let you call the wind correction while he shoots ( very humbling).

Compared to TF & RF rapid fire strings in rifle will seem like forever.

Prone is my best position maybe that's why it's taking me a while to learn pistol
I worried that shooting pistol might take away from my rifle skills but it has done nothing but help.

Good stuff.

TexasShooter, I hadn't even thought about Project Appleseed even though I had heard of them before. Great suggestion.

I found that a Bob Jones TAC lens kit in the rear aperture leaf helps get the front post in focus for me. I also like how small it is and hard to spot unless you know what it is. It's sleeper appearance helps in the fun when other folks at the range say I shouldn't be sighting in standing up or I need a red dot/laser/etc when their bench groups are larger than my offhand groups. (Probably the same mentality as the firearms owners that tell me being able to shoot pistol groups at 25 yards or farther is an unnecessary skill and a waste of time.)

TomH_pa, my AR is a mid-length M4 with a A2 rear sight. Since, like in the video I posted, someone else shot that style AR across the course and it looked hard to do I want to try it. CMP Talladega sells Creedmore loads in their Creedmore Sports store so I should be able to minimize ammo caused fliers. If I can group at a distance a more competitive rifle may be needed. Just trying things out first.

Jimmy, I'm in. I'd even take a day off for it so we can scare the range officers on a weekday.

Stephen

I forgot to mention, at 25 yards I have been shooting at doubled up used 10 meter Air Pistol targets in the middle of a reversed Birchwood Casey target sheet. While having a group all in the black looks good I also keep in mind there are about a thousand high school girls on rifle teams that could outshoot me on their worst day.

More dry fire needed.

My buddy's boy is just starting SR and he shoots an M4 across the course so it's doable. You don't give up anything with iron sights if you can see the front sight.

The single biggest improvement to any AR is a Geisslle trigger. I think when I put mine in I gained something ridiculous like 90 points in the next match. The NM service rifle trigger is the gold standard but his SSA is a big  improvement over the GI trigger.

Pay attention to Natural Point of Aim.  If you're shooting slow fire, check it before every shot.  

Consistent head positioning is more important with the M4 than it is with the AR15, more important with the AR than it is with the M1 or M1A.  The only way I have managed to consistently position my head with an AR is to put the left lobe of the charging handle in the right nostril of my nose.  If your head is not consistently positioned, your group will move around the target.  

My next biggest challenge was getting the rocking to dampen-out during Rapid Sitting.  The only way I got that to happen was to put my left foot down, put my left calf on top of it, then my left elbow in the middle of my left calf.  Relax your body and let it drop, especially on the right side.  

For heavier recoiling rifles, split the weight between your elbows or you will throw shots out the light side.

Well, NPOA is all about building position that your body will return to naturally and repeatable.  While NPOA can be checked during slow fire, there is no way to do such in 55 seconds for 10 rounds seating with transition and mag changes.  So position must be build and checked during prep.  One might find kneeling alternative as a good option.  While less stable than seating, it is more flexible, easier to get in and less taxing on older shooters. 
AP

I started my shooting career with high power rifle. My first EIC, I earned a 8 point leg, my second EIC I earned the 10 point leg. I was on my way to distinguished when I found out I could try out for the pistol team. I enjoyed pistol so much, I abandoned rifle, but it took me two years shooting service pistol EIC matches before I got my first pistol EIC points. I do enjoy shooting M1 Garand matches a lot - no equipment race, just the old battle rifle with good fundamentals for your best 30 rounds for record.

L Valdez wrote:I started my shooting career with high power rifle. My first EIC, I earned a 8 point leg, my second EIC I earned the 10 point leg. I was on my way to distinguished when I found out I could try out for the pistol team. I enjoyed pistol so much, I abandoned rifle...

You sound a lot like the (many) people that told me, "Oh, you're Distinguished Pistol and International; Distinguished Rifle will be a walk in the park for you!"

It took me 10 years and a lot of "First Leather"s. Distinguished Rifle is no cakewalk; those folks can flat-out shoot, and every time one person legs out, there are two more to take her place.

But it is fun, and it gets you out on the range, and you couldn't meet nicer people than "knuckle-dragging service rifle shooters"

shot Service Rifle for about 14 yrs, 

ditto the comment about nicer people,  
while there are some that get in the zone and you best leave them be, most (99.9%+) are more than willing to help in just about any way


with the AR, (I use an A2, 20" barrel) it, like any shooting sport, is all about consistency ,


you don't have to choke hold an AR, or throw your chicken wing up like you should with a M14 or M1, 

I put my nose on the charging handle, and have an AR scoped now, with the scope mounted far enough forward so that I can still keep my nose in place, 

Zediker's books are fantastic, (if not getting a bit dated in sections)
Tubb also put out a good book, 

one of the best is a set of 3, put out by Jim Owens, (jarheadtop.com)

one on wind, one on sights, one of postions/sling,  each helped me a bit

I think you'll enjoy high-power shooting. You'll find it to be longer days and harder work compared to pistol. I shot for twenty eight years and still would be, but a left shoulder injury took me out of the game. I never shot service rifle but held HM cards in high power, mid range, and long range. I'm in awe of service rifle shooters and looking back on it I wish I would have gone down that road. Like John B. said, "those folks can flat out shoot".

Best of luck to you.

Hold Hard!

Jim

Try to shoot some reduced course matches if possible for practice. The M4 length gun with irons will put you at a big disadvantage. It's no fun in the pits pulling at 600 if the shooter is all over. The issue is the short sight radius will amplify any errors in sight alignment. The butt of the gun needs to be in the exact same spot for every shot in the string at 600. Lots of good shooters never take the gun out for the whole 22 shot string. Go to some matches and see what everyone is running. If you have a detachable carry handle, detach it and throw it away. Buy a 4X scope (check the rules) and a nice forward mount. Worst case buy a flat top upper receiver and swap it. A Rock River trigger is cheap and a good place to start. Must pick up 4 1/2 Lb. 
If you do some research contacting the State Team could give you a leg up. NYS has a Small Arms Firing School that is a great start for new shooters. Shooting with the NYS team taught me more than I could have ever gotten on my own. Good guys, much respect.

john bickar wrote:I have shot a bit of service rifle. Standing is the most analagous to bullseye and your bullseye experience will give you an advantage.

Prone hurts.

Well hell. A slow Friday evening at home watching the CMP Mind Over Matter Rifle DVD set again with fresh ears and eyes and on disk 3 Sgt Chris Hatcher mentions shooting 22 and 45 pistol (Bullseye) to improve one's rifle skills in the off season. And dry fire. A lot.

I had bought the set when I started Bullseye a few years ago to load up the order from the CMP with the pistol set and the AMU books.

Something the rifle shooters remind me of is that it is important to understand what a Master or High Master classified shooter is saying versus what I am hearing. If I have a hunch that I missed something I review the material again as needed. (Hi Ed!)

There are two things that a service rifle shooter can benefit from Bullseye; Re-aquiring the sight picture in recoil recovery and trigger control, both standing and rapid fire.  

Did I mention trigger control?

A story my coach and mentor told me years ago. 
LtC Miller was Officer in charge of the base teams.  The rifle team needed improvement, he said.  He switched them to bullseye pistols to learn the basics.  After a while their rifle shooting greatly improved.  LtC Miller retired from the Army in 1963.

Avatar right is from the Miller family>>>>

With Service Rifle, the trigger control you learn from bullseye pistol will help immensely, especially in standing. NPA plays a much larger role. Follow through is just as important. You will have to learn how to build your positions and proper use of the sling. Also, welcome to reading the wind!

I've noticed that offhand 25 yards on an air pistol 10m target that calling the shots seems easier than pistol, less work/concentration. I've bought a Creedmoor mat and made some reduced targets for dry fire.

I am really looking forward to spending a day or two at the CMP Talladega Marksmanship Park.

jglenn21 wrote:"Prone hurts"

For me getting up from prone hurts.

 Try shooting a 1600 in Smallbore ... and there are those who shoot 2 a day ...

John may think HP is 'hard'. I never really 'trained' in any sense, just went out and shot with my 'friends' (club) for years, and it all fell into place.

Pistol, however ...

I've got a lot of WORK ahead of me.

Bad habit from SR ... you CAN get away with snapping at the trigger offhand if it's windy, and/or, if you're a bit shaky that day.

Pistol?

Not so much ...

I used to shoot SB prone when I was 20 something.  And I shot M1 prone some when I was 10-12 with guys in leggerns in SoCal.

Getting up and down then was no problem.  Now I feel my lumbar just standing around

Sa-tevp wrote:


Something the rifle shooters remind me of is that it is important to understand what a Master or High Master classified shooter is saying versus what I am hearing. If I have a hunch that I missed something I review the material again as needed. (Hi Ed!)

lot of truth here, 

benefited from shooting with a handful of Masters/High Masters (all Va State Team guys) when I shot Service Rifle, 
not just shooting positions etc, but also load development and the usual what to buy and not buy

learned a lot,  probably could have slowed down and listened and learned a lot more