Another Wobble Question

First topic message reminder :

My shop is eighty feet wide, so I have a target taped on one wall so I can dry fire at 25 yards. 

Why is it that my wobble consumes practically the entire black area of the target and sometimes more, But if I stand at the target and dry fire at a thumb sized smudge on the opposite wall I can nearly hold steady on the smudge and the trigger breaks without moving from the smudge?

I have also noticed this at the range where I wobble all over the target, but can single out a chunk of rubber or a leaf on the berm behind the target and usually hit it. I also found the same when after tearing down a stapled target a small corner of the target and a staple remained, so I walked back and shot at it from 25 yds. Ten shots and it was a very small tight group on that little piece of target the size of a silver dollar.

When I go to the indoor range a couple of the RO's always come in with a stick on 3/4" repair dot and we run it out to a random ten to fifteen yard distance and each get two shots at it with a random iron sight service pistol. One of those two shots hits the dot.

So, why is it that I can do the above examples and then find it such a struggle to hit a 5.5" black dot as 25 yards using a very accurate pistol with a dot scope on it? 

Is it due to not having a specifically defined aiming point?

How do I get through this psychological barrier?

Thank You!!

Today I tried it for the first time. I looked at the target and covered it with the dot. Seemed to work.
Edit: I was told by an old friend to turn the dot down so I can see through it. Seems to work best for me. Turn it up and its no longer a dot.

This place is great.
Thank You
David Root

I ran by the local indoor range on the way home and dispensed about seventy rounds of .22. It wasn't "training", just raise gun and shoot, lower gun, raise gun and shoot, lower gun, etc. as I was short on time.

I tried method #1, method #2, and a combination of both. One eye only, and both eyes open for each method.

In addition, I had switched from a Sightron S-30 to an 1"Ultradot which has a larger dot, raised the trigger from a two to a four pound pull, and had new prescription lenses in my glasses, so I was "testing" a number of things.

Through all of that, using a 25 yard slow fire target, (at 25 yards) all rounds landed within the 8 ring and lots of X's and 10's, so I was pretty happy despite all of the changing around and just shooting at a fairly quick pace. The rounds were also pretty evenly dispersed on the target which seemed like a good thing to me, so I wasn't pulling low right (left handed shooter) with the heavier trigger. My primary concern for this range visit was what was happening at the gun with the different scope views and the heavier trigger.

This weekend I'll have time to work on it properly and do some actual comparisons of the different methods using different targets for each.

Thank you all for the help and suggestions!

Jon Eulette wrote:There are basic two theories of thought on shooting the red dot. Theory number 1,  look at the target and try to keep the red dot centered in the bull. Theory  number 2,  look at the red dot and accept your hold.
 If I try theory number 1 I can’t hit the broadside of a barn. Theory number 2  I focus on the red dot and keep it centered in the scope tube. The scope tube is my rear sight and the red dot is my front sight. This allows me to easily accept my hold or wobble and squeeze the trigger.....

I don't have the experience and ability many of you have, but I do have lots of time for dry-fire and practice.  Since early February, I've been trying to follow Brian Zins advice about focusing on the target.  Today, after half an hour of dry-fire, I switched, and followed Jon's advice.  This is with a S&W Model 41 - the trigger doesn't "feel" like it moves - add enough pressure and the gun fires.  

Results:

• First, what seems to be happening to me when I follow Brian's advice, is that I'm thinking both about moving the dot in front of my target, and also about the trigger press, which doesn't really start for me until the dot is reasonably still, at which time I consciously add enough pressure to the trigger for the gun to fire.  Maybe I'm doing this wrong, but my brain is simultaneously trying to keep the dot centered over the target (a half-inch black dot on a white wall 12 feet away from me), and on firing the gun.
  
  
• When I switch to what I think Jon is saying, I give 95% of my concentration on the dot, focusing almost completely on the dot, trying to keep it within that half-inch black circle.  When this seems reasonably close to me, I give my trigger finger permission to smoothly apply pressure to the trigger, and I wait for the gun to fire.
  

I was surprised to find that doing things based on what Jon said worked much better.  At the moment the gun "clicked", the dot was much more likely to be where I wanted it to be.

One thing Jon wrote eludes me.  I'm trying out an Aimpoint 9000sc, and the scope tube seems to be so huge to me, it's not really visible.  I know it's "there", but I don't really notice the tube unless the dot wanders away from the center of the tube.  Maybe in time, I'll start seeing it the way Jon does.

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A lot of what I read in these discussions doesn't (yet) seem to apply to me.  My Model 41 is the opposite of a "roll trigger".  Just like my High Standard, nothing seems to "move", it's almost like the gun has a "pressure sensitive switch".  Also, I'm just now beginning to notice how there are times when the dot is more stable, and times when the dot is less stable, but with all my concentration on the dot, when I eventually do get the dot centered over my "target", I have enough time to apply pressure to the trigger without rushing it.  Rushing means disaster - the hole never ends up where I want it to be.  Part of me is constantly reminding me of that.  As to the dot, since that is presumably indicating where the hole in the target is going to be, Jon's way seems to work better (for me).    Maybe what I'm noticing is that doing things Jon's way, I can give almost all of my attention to the dot, and everything else takes care of itself (sub-conscious).   .....sorry if what I'm writing sounds confusing, as it's difficult for me to put all this into an accurate description of what's going on.

mikemyers wrote:A lot of what I read in these discussions doesn't (yet) seem to apply to me.  My Model 41 is the opposite of a "roll trigger".  Just like my High Standard, nothing seems to "move", it's almost like the gun has a "pressure sensitive switch". 

I'm kind of working on the same thing using my 1911/Marvel .22 conversion. I seldom shot the 1911 as a .45 because I didn't really care for the "crisp" trigger with barely any movement. I have always shot DA/SA service pistols and revolvers and like shooting DA. I always dry fired using DA and seldom using SA, so I literally find that keeping the trigger moving is more natural when I have a trigger with some movement in it. I have been primarily shooting the 1911/Marvel.22 and was not having a very good session so I figured I would try .45 and dug out my P220 SAO Sig and shot better with it than the .22, mainly due to the trigger creep and a smooth steady pull. I can easily tell when I am doing the right thing and keeping the trigger moving.

I have been working on the .22 all week though dry firing using methods disclosed in this thread and it's getting much better.

Last evening after dry firing and just before dark, I set up a target at fifty yards and shot five rounds and all were in the black, so I went home feeling like I accomplished something. I had only tried fifty yards one or twice just to get a visual on the distance.

I have located an instructor and will shoot with him this weekend and see how that goes. Having someone there in person may make a difference, as what I think I am doing may not be what I am actually doing! 

I'm very open to trying different methods and techniques to see what may or may not work for me, so all of the advice offered in this thread has been quite helpful!

Thank You!

You may or may not find this useful - I think people laugh at it more than consider it, but it works for me.  For starters, if you have a mobile phone, download the app "Interval Timer".  Then you create a dry-firing session, perhaps alternating between "active" and "rest", and set it for maybe 10 repetitions.  I set the "rest" time to one minutes, and the "active" time to 15 seconds.  So, an alarm beeps, I pick up the gun hold it (holding drill) and also dry-fire, then after 15 seconds (or whatever I select), I set the gun down and rest for a minute.  It probably sounds like a waste of time, but I do this maybe three or four sessions a day, trying to do so every day.  It didn't make much of a difference for a while, but because of the repetition, I figured out the best places for my fingers to go, etc., how to breath, and over time, I could see how things were improving.  Back when I started this, my guns with the sights were way to heavy, so it was a struggle just holding them up.  My cure for that was to put on a "1.5 pound wrist weight", and try to get through at least half the sessions wearing it.  Was miserable for a while, but when I took the weight off to finish the session, the heavy gun suddenly felt like it was made of plastic.  The other nice thing I realized unexpectedly, was that the red dot sight (that looked drunk a year or so ago) now is almost steady.  Repetition.  I can't take credit for any of this - it's all my interpretation of Sgt. Keith Sanderson's Holding Drills and Dry Fire drills - which I did exactly as he explained for a year or two.  The Mobile Phone app was to make life easier for me, as it tells me what to do, and when.

Having the app, I start, and keep going until the buzzer says I'm done.  It helps prevent me from getting distracted.  But way back when, it was way too boring to just stand there holding the gun, as my mind wanted to "do something", so I would turn on a video to keep my mind occupied while I was hopefully building up the appropriate muscles.

One thing for sure - doing this definitely starts to reduce the "wobble" over time.  It's probably the best thing I've ever found to gradually reduce the wobble, and if I doubted that, all I had to do is remember what the red dot sight used to look like!

Progress...



As mentioned in my first post, I really have no problem hitting small targets, but larger ones seem to shift my focus in a negative way.

I changed my methods and have been dry firing on a very small target at 25 yards which, believe it or not, shifts my focus to the dot rather than the target. I found that by doing that for a while I could move to the standard target and go right to a dot focus while dry firing some more and maintain my previous sight picture. (The one Jon described)

I went to the range Thursday night to see if it was working out and shot 25 rounds at the above target, cold, without scoping any of them and was pretty happy with the results when I retrieved the target. I'm going to continue on this path for a while.

Keep in mind that I'm left handed, so things are a bit weird right from the start...

Thank you all for the help and suggestions!

More progress...

Started this endeavor in early December last year and shot my fifth match (local club 900) this morning and scored 852-32X with my Marvel .22, which included a terrible RF target in the last segment when the Sheriff's helicopter decided to hover 100' over the range and it was a bit distracting...

 25 yard SF target:



I mainly only read the "Fundamentals" forum and sit straight up and pay attention when the High Masters and Masters offer advise. (Thank You!!)

Unfortunately, I have failed miserably so far in as far as I don't have a shot plan or keep a journal. I just load point it and manipulate the trigger smoothly while trying to maintain my focus on keeping the dot centered.

My next mission is to start paying more attention to what I am actually doing and trying to take some notes.

The only thing I do for sure is to never quit on a bad live or dry fire shot. I always quit on an X, so that I only remember what that looked and felt like, and try to retain that for visualization and the next live or dry fire practice. 

I'm steadily workin' on it and am very determined!

Thanks to all!

One of the guidelines to follow when training.

When training on a specific item or when shooting, as long as things are going well (good shots, good execution, right level of observation and focus) - KEEP DOING IT.  When we are performing how we want to perform, don't quit the session until you have to.  We need to experience and get used to performing at that level. 

On the other hand, when things are not going right, its probably time to stop, regroup, visualize what we want to achieve and then start again.  Some days, it just doesn't come together as well, there may be some other issues that are interfering with your session.  (I can't remember how many times it turned out to be loose scope, gun issue, etc.; other times physical like food or getting sick or too much exercise; other times just mental due to issues outside shooting.) 

In other words; when thing are going well, keep shooting.  When they ain't, find a path that does not lead to frustration. But always visualize success.

As always, your comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

The reason for my postings is to show that the comments and suggestions from you and the others is making a significant difference in my shooting.

Thank You!