Pro's and Con's of dedicated '22 pistols compared to 1911 conversions for Bullseye Shooting

The title says it all.  I couldn't find an existing thread earlier today when I was searching, so here goes.

For bullseye, what are the reasons for and against building a 1911 conversion, compared to just buying a dedicated '22 pistol.

For that matter, what are the current sources for a bullseye-quality conversion kit, and will they just "drop in" on an existing bullseye 1911?

For those who need/want optics, what choices are there?

Do they come with a Bullseye quality barrel, or does that become a special order part?

Does the 1911 need to be modified to work at its best with a conversion?

Mike wrote:I couldn't find an existing thread earlier today when I was searching

Mike, here are some threads on this site - they probably answer a few of your questions. power search

Thanks, but none of the ones I found (or you listed) are about what I was trying to ask.  
I was wondering why people buy any of those, when they can have a dedicated pistol specifically for 22.
If there is such a thread, reasonably recent, this thread can be deleted.

I think the underlying goal is to find what works best for you where your skills and capabilities are at the time.  If you shoot different scores with a conversion vs. a non-conversion pistol, those are points you can buy.  All the other points we have to figure out and earn for ourselves (made easier with the amazing help here on this forum!!!).

IF money was no object, we'd all try every pistol that ever came close to setting a record and select the one we shot best.

The reason I am going to try a conversion is that there are some significant differences between my .45 and .22 scores and using the same grip, trigger, etc. will let me figure out where my problem is and better address it.

They are affordable, the barrels are as accurate as most high priced .22 handguns.
They allow a common grip (1911) angle, they allow for economical changes in grip configurations, (slabs, ortho, etc)
They allow for easy, economical changes in irons sights to dots.
You can throw it on your centerfire (not .45) gun with a 2 1/2# trigger 
you can throw it on your .45 with a 3 1/2# trigger.
You can throw it on your EIC .45 with a 4# trigger.
affordable magazines. check out the mag prices for Pardini's, Walthers, etc...

man, life is good with a conversion.

And, Marvel, Advantage Arms and Nelson all sell quality conversions.

and, if your left handed, well, let's just not go there!!!

Mike, I have a Nelson conversion on a Springfield Mil Spec. This setup is replacing my model 41. 

Today was my second time out with this setup. I ran a couple hundred rounds through it the other day to break it in and zero the UD.
This is with CCI Mini Mags at 25yards on a 9 ring blank target. Stock trigger on the Mil Spec. 

My opinion:
  The advantage between a 1911 conversion and dedicated pistol is the availability of 1911 internal and external replacement parts,you will setup the weight (aluminum or steel sight rib or aluminum or steel slide (marvel),you will run your conversion with GSG,colt ace mags. I had plans for buy a Hammerli like 208,208s or 215 but the scarce parts,very limited gunsmith for these great pistol stop at the time for purchase. I like Marvel conversion and Love KARTS,are state of ART.

mikemyers wrote:Thanks, but none of the ones I found (or you listed) are about what I was trying to ask.  
I was wondering why people buy any of those, when they can have a dedicated pistol specifically for 22.
If there is such a thread, reasonably recent, this thread can be deleted.

To put this thread back in context...

In another thread you were referring to issues you were having shooting your S&W 41.

Also in another thread you stated that your reason for shooting .22 was to prepare yourself for shooting your 1911 wad gun.

That's why (in one of your other threads) I suggested that you might be better off just shooting a .22 conversion on your 1911.

It just makes sense to me to go with a .22 conversion if your goal is shooting your wad gun!

That makes four manufacturers who have been listed up above, Kart, Marvel, Nelson, and Advantage Arms.

Are they all pretty much equal, or does one of them have an advantage over the others?
I would have assumed steel parts would be better, but heavier.
Is one of them more durable than the others?
I assume all of them can be purchased to work with a red dot sight?
Do all of them just "drop onto" a 1911 and work, or do some of them need to be custom fitted?


DA/SA, you are completely correct, and for me, that's my main goal, 45.  
I think all the reasoning makes sense, but I don't want to buy "brand a", only to decide later that "brand c" would have been a better choice.
Brian said something about that as well.  

Is it a "Ford vs. Chevy" choice, or do some of the brands stand out over the rest?

DA/SA wrote:......In another thread you were referring to issues you were having shooting your S&W 41.......

To be honest, I have "issues" with everything.  
Whenever I learn something, I find there is a lot more to be learned.  
Every gun I have has "issues", but the "issue" usually turns out to be me, not the gun.

I was reasonably happy before I decided to keep one hand in my pocket.
That made for Issues with a capital I .

It's all good, it's almost always enjoyable, and I've only had one "issue" that I've been stuck on for years.
The rest get resolved, often with help from this forum.

mikemyers wrote:Every gun I have has "issues", but the "issue" usually turns out to be me, not the gun.

That's my point.

Why spend time overcoming issues with the 41 only to move on to new issues with the 1911. 

Cut the issues in half by using the same gun for both calibers.

The conversion has a rail on it just like your wad gun has, so use the same dot scope for both if you want and cut those issues in half as well!

Keep it simple.  Running a conversion keeps you on the same platform.  I know several that use their .45 lower so they have the same trigger weight on the 22.  When starting out I think this is a good strategy.  At some point you can go to a dedicated lower and lighten the trigger.

I shoot about the same scores with my conversion as my 208s and my Pardini 6" Bullseye with a 1911 grip.
- Dave

DA/SA wrote:The conversion has a rail on it just like your wad gun has, so use the same dot scope for both if you want and cut those issues in half as well!

I've never seen anyone move the optic from the conversion to the wad gun or vice a versa.  There would definitely be adjustments to get the zeros right.  Keep it simple just buy an optic to keep on the conversion.
- Dave

Agreed, but Mike appears to only be shooting .22 now in preparation for .45 in the future.

I didn't get the impression that at this point he would be using both .22 and .45 in a match together.

Nope, the only match I have access to now is 22.   We're trying to allow the Bullseye group to alternate between 22, 38, and 45, but that isn't approved yet.   

Looking at a few web pages, and videos, the less expensive versions don't seem all that good.  The one that seems to stand out now, is the Marvel Unit 1.  Here's the page if someone wants to buy one:

https://www.marvelprecision.com/unit-1-form

As usual, one question brings up more.  
Choices include:
steel or aluminum (with mount for scope)
Lock back, yes or no
metal vs. poly magazines
compensator?
Group Fee ????

The other manufacturers, YouTube videos, etc., seem to be much simpler, but so far I get the feeling that Marvel is a good choice.

Get an aluminum, lock back, plastic mags, no comp and normal group. I think they're all guaranteed for 1" or under. The aluminum slide and plastic mags will keep your weight down.

I like some of the “Olympic” 22s better than my Nelson Conversion.  I like a two stage trigger, and for me, the ones on my Pardini and Matchguns are in a different league than that of any 1911.  This is just my opinion of course, others may disagree.  I also am finding the raked grip angle more natural.  Finally, I like the adjustability/ergonomics better, and  compared to a dedicated 1911 with a Nelson top, done right, is no less expensive.

I've got a conversion (Marvel) and a Pardini SP (which I had first).

Why do I go with the Pardini for .22 matches?  Simple; I can consistently shooter higher scores with it.

My conversion and my Pardini both likely have the same (or close enough I can't tell) mechanical accuracy.  However, with the anatomic grip that fits me well and the 2-stage trigger (which I find helps quite a bit), I find shooting it a lot more forgiving compared to shooting my wadgun with the Marvel conversion on it.  Really, if I do my part, my scores would be equal with both.  But, when I'm slightly off on my game with my Pardini (get a little sloppy on trigger press, etc), I might pull a shot into the 8-ring, while the same shot using the Marvel conversion might end being a 6 or 7.

So why am I keeping the conversion too?  Cheap practice for getting trigger time using my wadgun.  Sure, I could dryfire, but that gets old after awhile, so it's nice to have the feedback of actually shooting a target.

If I was shopping for a conversion and hadn't gotten a good deal on my Marvel and had to buy new, I would've gone with a Nelson with the combo rail in a heartbeat.

A couple of points.

A dedicated 22 generally has a better trigger than a conversion on a 1911 lower.  On the other hand a conversion has a 1911 trigger with all of its features, warts and all.

If you’re just starting, I’d really recommend getting a conversion over the usual recommendation of a “starter-grade” 22.  The rationale is that there is only one grip and trigger to learn.

My old 41 shoots sub x-ring at 50yds. My Nelson will hold 10 ring barely. The 41 has a just barely over 2lb crisp trigger. The lower on the Nelson has to be over 3lbs or the hammer likes to follow the slide forward. The Nelson has a roll trigger. I average 10/15 points higher in a 900 with the Nelson. Nelson has a great after purchase service and the owner is a member here. I really should send the unit back to see why it doesn't group better but so far "it" is not what is holding my scores down. Mike this is my Nelson on a Scandium frame. The only way it could be lighter is to swap grips and change that 3000 to an H1.

First couple of years I shot the Mark III.  Very reliable, decent accuracy, decent trigger.

Five years shot the Marvel(dedicated lower).  Very accurate, very good trigger, medium reliability.  I have a love/hate relationship with this gun.  When I don't have reliability issues, I love it.

Last year, bought the Pardini SP.  Excellent reliability, excellent accuracy, outstanding trigger.  It did take some customization with the grip, which I'm still working on.  Did I mention the trigger?  it is adjustable seven ways from Sunday.  My only, very slight wish, is that it were little less front heavy, and I have the shorter version.  Overall, I'm very happy with this gun.  Yes, it is very expensive, but arguably, the best 22 pistol in world.

YMMV

LenV wrote:My old 41 shoots sub x-ring at 50yds. My Nelson will hold 10 ring barely. ..... I really should send the unit back to see why it doesn't group better but so far "it" is not what is holding my scores down. ....

A friend with machinist skills and a lathe redid the crowns on my two Nelson conversions (one was iron sights, one a red dot) and the Nelsons went from grouping like a 45 to grouping like a 22. 

My Nelson and dedicated frame is like a Porsche 911 RSR but my FWB AW93 is like a Formula 1 car.

Mike,

Here is a ten shot group from my Marvel Unit 1 a few weeks ago at 25 yards. 

Shooting from a bench with just my wrists resting on a block of wood.




Here it is right out of the box at 50 yards sighting it in. First time shooting it, and first time for me shooting at 50 yards. Wrists resting on a block of wood.

It started low and I walked it up into the X for the last five shots adjusting the dot as I shot.  I had set up the dot scope at 25 yards using a bore laser to get it close.


Being new to all of this, I feel quite confident shooting this thing.

mikemyers wrote:Nope, the only match I have access to now is 22.   We're trying to allow the Bullseye group to alternate between 22, 38, and 45, but that isn't approved yet.   

Looking at a few web pages, and videos, the less expensive versions don't seem all that good.  The one that seems to stand out now, is the Marvel Unit 1.  Here's the page if someone wants to buy one:

https://www.marvelprecision.com/unit-1-form

As usual, one question brings up more.  
Choices include:
steel or aluminum (with mount for scope)
Lock back, yes or no
metal vs. poly magazines
compensator?
Group Fee ????

The other manufacturers, YouTube videos, etc., seem to be much simpler, but so far I get the feeling that Marvel is a good choice.

You need to include the Nelson which has all of Bob Marvel's latest upgrades.  The Nelson's machining (done by McMillan) is exquisite.  I also prefer the weight of the Nelson over my Marvel Unit 1.  Both of mine are X ring guns.  Also I prefer the Nelson plastic mags (some don't).  I had converted to Pro Mag's (plastic) on my Marvel after struggling to get the metal mags to be consistent.  You really can't go wrong either way but I prefer the Nelson.
http://www.nelsoncustomguns.com/22lr-conversion/  

- Dave

Mike,

If you have interest in learning the 45 it's great to have a conversion to train with even if you don't compete with it. I believe you get good feedback by training with a conversion on your 45 lower. 

I have a Nelson and love it. However I've never shot the scores with it that I do with my European 22's. That said, I know others who shoot them incredibly well!

22's are fun. Buy several!

Jim