Center hold at 25 and six oclock at 50

After talking to several shooters , I noticed that many like six oclock ( or sub six oclock ) hold at 50 and center at 25.  They say when You have to shoot faster , center hold is more natural and when You have plenty of time (at 50) , You can use anything You want since time is not an issue.  Any thoughts on this?

I don't buy the logic. It's hard enough to train my brain to do one thing consistently.  I can't come up with any good reason to have different shot processes at different distances. Maybe I'm simple, but I suspect that just when I get in the zone and start shooting subconsciously my mind would switch to the other sight picture and I'd have a great knot of shots in the 8 ring high (or low).

I suggest trying deep sub-6. It works well for shooting fast because your can see the sights really clearly against the white background and it works for shooting really accurately because your can see the sights really clearly against the white background.

Isn't the larger black area on the bull at 50 yards, to give the same visual effect when you are shooting at both target distances?  Why change, when things are so similar to the eye?

Usually the other way around...center at 50, sub 6 at 25.

I see.  I still confuse six o'clock with sub six.  To ME 6 o'clock is when I aim below the bull and there is an obvious white line between the top of my sights and the bottom of the bull.  Is that six o'clock or sub six o'clock ?

I was playing with a calculator a while back (JBM) and got results that suggest, in theory, a 6:00 hold with irons is zero-zero at 25 and 50 ...

I was off by a bit. I hadn't used the 'zero height' function, instead had subtracted numbers for a CM calc.

Some new numbers: CM hold, 800 fps, .07 BC, sight height .65":
50 yd zero: +1.5" (6 MOA) above line of sight @ 25 yds, angle of departure 14.9 MOA.
25 yd zero: 3" (6 MOA) below LOS @ 50 yds, AOD 9.1 MOA.

Roughly 6 MOA (14.9 -.9.1) difference in elevation (AOD). So you (should) need to add that from 25 to 50.

Non CM holds get complicated and confusing.

6:00 hold, radius of bull 2.75" (11 MOA) @ 25, 4" (8 MOA) @ 50.
50 yd zero: 3.5" above LOS, or .75" (3 MOA) above the X @ 25 yds. AOD 22.5 MOA.
25 yd zero: 2.5" above LOS, or 1.5" (3 MOA) below the X @ 50 yds, AOD 19.6 MOA.

Roughly 3 MOA (22.5 - 19.6) difference in elevation (AOD).


Center of white, sub 6:00 hold. Distance to center X, 7.5" (30 MOA) @ 25, 8" (16 MOA) @ 50.
50 yd zero: 5.5" above LOS, or 2" (8 MOA) below the X @ 25 yds, AOD 30.1 MOA.
25 yd zero: 12" above LOS, or 4" (8 MOA) above the X @ 50 yds. AOD 37.7 MOA.

Roughly 7.5 MOA (37.7 - 30.1) *LESS* elevation for a 50 yd zero.

This is all static, of course. I have no idea what effect the rise of the gun under recoil, as the bullet moves up the barrel, has in terms of possibly 'flipping' it up from the aim point.

Engineers: Please review this, and if so, tell me I'm FOS, and where I went wrong.

Sheriff1962 wrote:I see.  I still confuse six o'clock with sub six.  To ME 6 o'clock is when I aim below the bull and there is an obvious white line between the top of my sights and the bottom of the bull.  Is that six o'clock or sub six o'clock ?

to me sub-6 is half the bull diameter below the black target.

Sub 6  When I shoot irons my rear sight gaps are the width I hold below the target.  Then my eye sees this gap of light around the front blade that is equal on the sides and top.  My rear sight side gaps are the same width as the blade or a 1-1-1.  It also worked for me when I was using a 1-2-1 gaped rear sight. 

Your eyes/brain likes symmetry.
- Dave

dronning wrote:Sub 6  When I shoot irons my rear sight gaps are the width I hold below the target.  Then my eye sees this gap of light around the front blade that is equal on the sides and top.  My rear sight side gaps are the same width as the blade or a 1-1-1.  It also worked for me when I was using a 1-2-1 gaped rear sight. 

Your eyes/brain likes symmetry.
- Dave

That sounds very reasonable!!

dronning wrote:Sub 6  When I shoot irons my rear sight gaps are the width I hold below the target.  Then my eye sees this gap of light around the front blade that is equal on the sides and top.  My rear sight side gaps are the same width as the blade or a 1-1-1.  It also worked for me when I was using a 1-2-1 gaped rear sight. 

Your eyes/brain likes symmetry.
- Dave

My engineering brain has always been hesitant to try sub 6 due to not having a clear reference for how low to aim. This helps a ton and at least gives me a starting point. Thanks.

Stork wrote:My engineering brain has always been hesitant to try sub 6 due to not having a clear reference for how low to aim. This helps a ton and at least gives me a starting point. Thanks.

Mine too, until I tried it and saw that it works. I explain it this way. At 50 yards the distance between the bottom of the bull and the bottom of the paper is about the same as the diameter of the black bullseye. So if  your sights are lined up and you are ANYWHERE between the bull and the bottom your shot will be in the black. In reality, you have a bright white backdrop behind the sights. When you get close the the bottom or the bullseye you lose the bright backdrop and your mind recognizes it as "something not right, don't shoot" so in reality you are hovering in the middle third to half of the white without even trying. At 25 yards I do the same thing, except, I subconsciously hover about the same distance below the bull as I do at 50 yards. I don't try to do it, it just happens.

One interesting thing...

I shot only open sights for about a year when I was working on my distinguished badge. Over the course of the year, my groups got smaller and my point of aim moved up closer to the bullseye. It was totally unconscious. I just kept focusing on the front sight and occasionally had to move the sights down a click of two. I think that as my focus and hold improved, my subconscious mind held the sight picture just outside the area where the bull would interfere with the sight picture.

One more thing to wrap your engineering brain around. When I shoot deep sub-6 I adjust 4 clicks DOWN for 50 yards and back UP for 25. I tried figuring out the geometry of that, but can't explain it. I know it works and I've talked to other very good shooters who do the same.

See above, best sub-6 is an area of white approximately equal to the bars of white on either side of the front sight.  No need to be precise, you don't want precise aiming point; just use the general area of wobble guideline.  You do want absolutely precise in the alignment of the front and rear sights!

Much better (for me) than 6:00 hold where you try to put the front sight under some mythical point at the bottom of an indistinct grey / black circular blob..... 

Remember, (at least for me) its about staying away from some "point of aim" that increases our chance of picking off the shot or hesitating on the trigger, and allowing us (me) to complete the trigger operation as we are within the acceptable area (and really moving to the center).  I kinda call it driving to the center of the wobble, Brian talks about the trigger finger helping, its all pretty similar.  In general, stay away from points of aim and get good trigger operation in the smallest area of wobble.

Dry fired for the first time ever using a sub 6 hold... Wow is that different! Tried used dronning's 1-1-1 ratio hold and that felt/looked like it could be a good solution.

What I observed was a bit different than expected. First, unless you look at the target, seeing a 1-1-1 ratio is tough with a blurry target. (That's good in the sense that I know I was looking at my front sight.) 

I occasionally observed the bull becoming a nice circle with a very slightly oval shaped bottom. Because it was blurry I wasn't sure EXACTLY where I was holding, but I'm guessing I was holding slightly high at 6 o'clock rather than a sub-6 at those times. Is that correct?

When I saw a true round blurry bull, I felt like I was doing an area aiming drill on a blank target. Odd, but good.

Thanks again dronning for that 1-1-1 reference point.

I will be setting up my EIC gun tomorrow (SW Mod 41). And have been wondering about all this center hold, 6 o'clock, and sub six stuff.

I am just a Marksman right now and am still working on the whole fundamentals game at this time. Trigger control, sight pic and follow thru. How might I given my novice experience with pistol (most of my shooting has be HP and SB.) select an approach to set up my EIC gun.

I see the wisdom of center hold, but the 6 o'clock hold has lots of appeal to me. Its just a few click back and forth from 50 to 25 yrds. Sub six scares me given my current skill level, but I also see the wisdom of trying it out at least in practice.

Next EIC chance for me is in Sept.

xman wrote:I will be setting up my EIC gun tomorrow (SW Mod 41). And have been wondering about all this center hold, 6 o'clock, and sub six stuff.

I am just a Marksman right now and am still working on the whole fundamentals game at this time. Trigger control, sight pic and follow thru. How might I given my novice experience with pistol (most of my shooting has be HP and SB.) select an approach to set up my EIC gun.

I see the wisdom of center hold, but the 6 o'clock hold has lots of appeal to me. Its just a few click back and forth from 50 to 25 yrds. Sub six scares me given my current skill level, but I also see the wisdom of trying it out at least in practice.

Next EIC chance for me is in Sept.

You don't have to do any clicks at all.  I hold center at 50 and tight 6 at 25 with no sight adjustments on any of my 6 BE guns.  The reasoning:

Being astigmatic, the target black is a Venn diagram-like smear at 50.  But it shouldn't be clear, anyway.  If sights are aligned and in the center of the big white target backing, it will be in the black.  Xs happen, it's statistics.  Sub-6 and deep-6 have worked at 50 for me, though it requires sight adjustments going from line to line.

At 25, I'm not sold on sub-6 or deep-6, though I understand the logic.  There, the sights are too small and the aiming area too large to feel comfortable drilling 5 holes at a time into a big vacuous white space.  I use tight-six o'clock, which gives me crisp sight picture right at the base of a fuzzy black.  If the perfectly aligned sights overlap the black a bit, it's still a 10.  If there is a shred of white above the sight, it's still a 10.

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WesG wrote

Roughly 6 MOA (14.9 -.9.1) difference in elevation (AOD). So you (should) need to add that from 25 to 50.

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I always had to change 6 clicks on my Bomar 25 to 50 using a 6:00 hold.
Now i use a dot and its 3 clicks for center hold.
He iscorrect.

6 oclock hold- 45acp

Get a good zero at 25, timed and rapid with iron sights. 
 

At 50 slow fire,  use spotting scope to see bullets point of impact. Then  adjust hold to see more or less white target on top of front sight to hit 10 ring. 

Using 200 gr lswc and Bullseye 3.5 @ 25 and 3.8 @ 50   seems to need little to no sight adjustment for me.  (Shaky old man)