9mm 147 JHP

I've finally got some range sessions to evaluate Zero and Everglades 147 JHP.   It was quite the surprise when the results from 30 rounds each at 50 yds clearly gave the advantage to Everglades.  The bullets look identical and both 10 piece samples weighed within 0.5 gr for Zero and 0.8 gr for Evg.  But the similarities stopped there.  Evg. groups yielded an average of 70% within 2" while Zero was scattered around 6".   Similar results were seen when using 125 HAP vs 125 Zero.   The rounds were fired in 10 shot groups in a S&W 986 from a Hyskore bench rest.   The three 10-shot groups used CCI Blazer, Rem. range and virgin Starline brass unmixed.  Powder was 3.5 Titegroup in 2 groups and 4.1 CFE in one group.  All were 1.100 COL, LFCD no crimp.   I've searched for 147 JHP Truncated Cone bullets but no one seems to make them as I think that configuration would be more accurate.  Comments?

Bullet diameters.

Bigtrout wrote:I've finally got some range sessions to evaluate Zero and Everglades 147 JHP.   It was quite the surprise when the results from 30 rounds each at 50 yds clearly gave the advantage to Everglades.  The bullets look identical and both 10 piece samples weighed within 0.5 gr for Zero and 0.8 gr for Evg.  But the similarities stopped there.  Evg. groups yielded an average of 70% within 2" while Zero was scattered around 6".   Similar results were seen when using 125 HAP vs 125 Zero.   The rounds were fired in 10 shot groups in a S&W 986 from a Hyskore bench rest.   The three 10-shot groups used CCI Blazer, Rem. range and virgin Starline brass unmixed.  Powder was 3.5 Titegroup in 2 groups and 4.1 CFE in one group.  All were 1.100 COL, LFCD no crimp.   I've searched for 147 JHP Truncated Cone bullets but no one seems to make them as I think that configuration would be more accurate.  Comments?

I'd bet a nickel that the Everglade bullets are actually Zero bullets.

I just sent them an email and asked them who makes those 147 grain JHP bullets. I'll let you know what they say.

Their reply was . . . These are a bulk unbranded projectile.  Performance and design is very similar to Zero.

Bigtrout, glad to see you're getting such nice results.  Question: when you said you had similar results when using 125 HAP v 125 Zero, what exactly did you mean? One brand showed better clustering than the other?

Also, it would be interesting to see how your gun/load does with Hornady 147 JHP. It fits the TC JHP description and has a good reputation for accuracy.

Jim, .355.     S148, 125 HAP (truncated cone .356 dia.) gave decent groups and 125 Zero JHP (non-truncated .355 dia.) were scattered.  I can't seem to get Zeroes to work well with any load configuration.  I feel bad because Roze gave me 50 of each free of charge to try.  Most posts here give Zeroes good marks so I expected better.  Are you sure the XTP's are truncated?  I know there are FMJ's that are truncated. The photos of XTP's I've seen in online websites show more of round nose.  i'd give 100 of them a shot if they had the HAP profile, even at the excessive cost.  I just reviewed the photos again and some are truncated, some are round.  I've got to look into this more

Sorry to hear that the Zeros aren't working out for you. I've had good luck with their 115 JHP-Conical.  Were you testing their conical bullets?  I've also found that the Hornady 125 HAP is one of the most consistently accurate bullets I've used. 

Yes, the 147 XTP is a truncated cone. The sides of the nose are flat. Here's a picture I just took. 

Precision delta makes a flat point bullet that is similar to the tapered cone of the HAPs and XTPs.
https://www.precisiondelta.com/products/9mm-147gr-fmj-flat-point/
These shoot better than zero's 147 gr JHP and 147 gr xtp in my gun.

I was going to suggest the Remington 147 FMJ bullet. They have proven to be very accurate, but Midway has them listed as discontinued. Don't know if that means Midway will no longer sell them or if Remington will no longer offer them as a component. 

The 147 grain Magtech FMJ is another to look at. It has produced nice groups too. 

Another 147 to consider is rmr's FMJ FP. It is a truncated cone. I have some but have not tried them yet. But rmr's 124 FMJ FP has been very accurate, and their 147 is just a longer version of that. 

We'll keep you busy testing!!

rmr = rocky mountain reloading. https://www.rmrbullets.com/
147 = https://www.rmrbullets.com/shop/rmr-in-house/9mm-147-gr-rmr-full-metal-jacket-heavy-matchwinner-flat-nose-bullets-new/

I'd like to get my hands on whatever Browning is using in their 147 FMJ load. They shoot!

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/1/18/38-different-9mm-loads

Thanks for the suggestions.  Testing is a dirty job but someone has to do it lol.  Basically it's all I do with my handloads.  Again, there is more to be considered than thought about.

5-shot group size with the same ammo can vary by a factor of 3 or more.

You can also get that much variance with 15-shot groups with the same ammo.   https://americanhandgunner.com/handguns/exclusive-consistent-velocity-accuracy/

That's why 5-shot groups are not very useful.

Like I said, nothing to nail a final result on and needs to be confirmed, but my 5 shot groups usually do.  

FWIW, precision rifle guys always use 5 shot groups for initial profiling, nobody I know of do initial profiling with 10-15 round groups and I have a lot of experience doing load development....  You of course can do what you want as it is a free country but I am just passing info on.

The 5 shot groups is why they give you 30 bullets i.e. so you can test a number of potential conditions.  Testing one condition with 10-20 rounds means you are just taking a shot in the dark.

I read the article.  Too much math.   I do not have a ransom rest.  I do use a Hyscore rest.  I do 5 shot groups because sometimes if I do 10 shot groups,  I get two 5 shot groups because my grip or something.  If its a good load, I can tell.   Yesterday I shot 3 5 shot groups and averaged them.   It seems my first group of the day is best.  

Once I find good at 25, I move out to 50.   

I usually shoot a control group of something I know or even factory stuff to make sure its not me.  

After a while I pick up on trends like a certain bullet, or powder or OAL that seems to stand out  for a single gun.  

Its all part of the game.  Sometimes I get tired of testing and just want to practice matches.  
David

Good points all, jlow.  Unfortunately I'm not using a RR and do have flyers.  I really need the 10 per group to negate the possibility of groups-by-chance.  I've done extensive load development on the 115 and 125 HAP's, not so much using 147 JHP, but the differences among 125 HAP vs Zero JHP and 147 Everglades vs Zero JHP are so stark it cannot be random chance.  I stopped fooling with FMJ's 2 years ago.  I'm using the heavier projectiles for subsonic rounds.  To get any accuracy with 115 HAP I need to push 1200 fps which transits the sound barrier downrange.

I understand but although a RR is ideal, one should be able to shoot reasonably consistent groups with the gun and a bag at least at 25 yards?

The thing is if you are not sitting on an accuracy node i.e. powder charge/seating depth wise, there can be a huge difference in group size.

I bought 100 147 XTP's from my LGD Monday for nearly $25 with sales tax.  Online they were less expensive but with shipping would have cost about the same.  I loaded some clean Blazer range brass, 10 each with 3.5 Titegroup and 4.1 CFE, 1.100 COL, LFCD light crimp.  The Tg group was fairly scattered but CFE held 10 for 10 exactly 2", no fliers at 50 yds, best my 986 has performed at 50 yds from a manual rest.  Now comes the fun process of pitting 125 HAP against 147 XTP.
I've searched for bulk (at least 500) 147 XTP for sale but only found 100 ct.  Is there any company that sells XTP's in bulk counts?  I'm just looking for now in the event XTP becomes my bullet of choice, but not sure if I want to spend 18 to 25 cents a bullet.

16.77 here.   https://www.midwayusa.com/product/346668/hornady-xtp-bullets-jacketed-hollow-point

LenV wrote:16.77 here.   https://www.midwayusa.com/product/346668/hornady-xtp-bullets-jacketed-hollow-point

I've searched the Web, Len.  Midway is a dollar more than I paid when you add in shipping to VT.

Has anyone tested the Zero 147 FMJs?  

I've heard that Zero's 115 FMJ sit atop the Atlantic Arms Elite bullets used by the Army Marksmanship unit.


This is an interesting thread. 


I'm writing a review of a Kart barrel install in a Dan Wesson Pointman 9. Am trying to determine what this gun likes. I have very little information on the accuracy of the 147 bullet. Was curious if it can compete with the 115 and 124/5 at 50 yds.

The Everglades 147 FMJ's were all over the paper when compared to Montana Gold 115 JHP's at 25 yds. from my RO9 a few years ago.