Seating HBWC proud of the case for revolver ?

by Al W. Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:05 am

Morning folks,
Wondering if you experts have any thoughts on seating the HBWC slightly proud of the case ?
I load for my 52 and a couple S&W revolvers a 14 and 15 .
I can use the 52 loads in the revolvers, but I was told by several shooters that I should seat the WC about .010 to .014 proud of the case mouth for the revolvers.
When I asked why the general wisdom was, "because they shoot better."
OK , that's the received wisdom .
My revolvers do better with the Zero projectiles , while the 52 does better with PD.
Any thoughts ?
Seems there would be less pressure generated by the proud seating, but I would think it was slight.
I'm loading 2.8gr of BE into , R&P, Starline or PPU cases. I separate the headstamps .
Can't really see any differing results from case to case.
I'm running a Dillon 550 with their first die with an after market WC powder funnel die , then a Redding Competition seating die and back to the Dillon for crimp.
Seems to be working out.
Thanks !

by **Wobbley** Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:13 am

How well do they shoot in your revolvers now? I would think that any increase in accuracy would be small, but less jump is less jump.

by james r chapman Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:56 am

Seating HBWC proud of the case for revolver ? 1be2aa10

Like this, every time.

by LenV Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:05 am

I wouldn't want any HBWC loaded up that wouldn't also function in my 52. I shoot my 52 ammo all the time in my 14's and 27. They are great just the way they are.

Len

by Al W. Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:16 am

Wobbley wrote:How well do they shoot in your revolvers now? I would think that any increase in accuracy would be small, but less jump is less jump.

You obliquely answered my question by mentioning jump.
I've heard jump cited as a problem in .357 mag revolvers shooting .38sp cartridges but upon consideration can see how a WC would jump when moving from cylinder to cone to barrel.
Thanks for that insight.

by Al W. Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:20 am

If you ever measure the cartridge post the number. Looks to be .017 to .020 or there abouts. This picture seems to come with a virus BTW. If you enlarge it it takes you to a scam site.

james r chapman wrote:Like this, every time.

by Al W. Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:27 am

LenV wrote:I wouldn't want any HBWC loaded up that wouldn't also function in my 52. I shoot my 52 ammo all the time in my 14's and 27. They are great just the way they are.

Len

Yes, that makes sense to me as well and I have in fact been doing just that .
In my case I shoot my revolvers better than the 52. It may be that my load and projectile do better in the revolvers.
I have yet to RR the 52 as my club doesn't have a set of grips for a 52. I might cough up the bucks to buy a set to check my 52.
But the reason I ask about the seating depth is simply because so many people recommend that procedure for revolver loads.
Everybody but the SWC guys that are shooting the long line with their 158gr SWC.
Its the received revolver wisdom , which I expect has to do with the "bullet jump" issues that some folks consider to be apocryphal .
I have a pal that is highly rated nationally shooting a 686 with .38sp SWC at 50yds that discounts the jump which he considers to be a myth .

by james r chapman Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:57 am

Al W. wrote:If you ever measure the cartridge post the number. Looks to be .017 to .020 or there abouts. This picture seems to come with a virus BTW. If you enlarge it it takes you to a scam site.
james r chapman wrote:Like this, every time.

Anyone else having redirection problems? I show nothing on my end.

by mikemyers Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:12 am

Er, what is "Bullet Jump" ????

Never heard of it before.

by james r chapman Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:17 am

Distance between the bullet and the barrel rifling engraving the bullet.

About twice the bullet diameter in a revolver

by mikemyers Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:45 am

Thanks - that's to let the bullet get moving faster, before it hits the rifling?

by mikemyers Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:46 am

Thanks - that's to let the bullet get moving faster, before it hits the rifling?

(sorry for double post - my network is not behaving.)

by lyman1903 Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:46 am

no, not at all,

you want the bullet to engage the rifling as soon as possible, (some rifle shooters will reload to minimize or eliminate the jump)
with revolvers, you have the length to get out the cylinder, and the forcing cone to go thru first,

Throats are usually cut so that a variety of ammo can be used safely

by rreid Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:31 pm

So, all you guys who say "bullet jump" is bad, what do you think about the Taylor throat? The late Jerry Keefer said it was the way to go. I assumed he knew what he was talking about.

by james r chapman Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:44 pm

rreid wrote:So, all you guys who say "bullet jump" is bad, what do you think about the Taylor throat? The late Jerry Keefer said it was the way to go. I assumed he knew what he was talking about.

as much as I admired Jerry, the subject of Taylor throating is fraught with pro's v. cons.

Many highly regarded revolver smiths feel differently.

Bullet jump is not bad if the dimensions are correct.

PS: Remington .38 spl match measures 1.170 OAL

by Al W. Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:15 pm

james r chapman wrote:
rreid wrote:So, all you guys who say "bullet jump" is bad, what do you think about the Taylor throat? The late Jerry Keefer said it was the way to go. I assumed he knew what he was talking about.
as much as I admired Jerry, the subject of Taylor throating is fraught with pro's v. cons.

Many highly regarded revolver smiths feel differently.

Bullet jump is not bad if the dimensions are correct.

PS: Remington .38 spl match measures 1.170 OAL

Oh, Thanks for that OAL on the Remington. That would be a number to shoot for. So to speak:D

by Al W. Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:32 pm

I'm looking for a pistol smith to check forcing cones on my 14 and 15.
Revolver folks are few and far between.
My 14 groups well in the RR so any problems there are me.
My 15 on the other hand seems to have leading issues that a forcing cone job might help.
The Taylor throating seems a good idea but if cone honing and cylinder reaming are all that is necessary that would seem to be the most tried and true method of perfecting a revolver.
The jury is out I think. Worth talking to a smith about.
Any of you folks know of a good revolver man in western NC ?
I'm lookin'.

by **Wobbley** Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:12 pm

Is bullet jump bad? One of the most accurate revolvers I own is a Python in 357 Magnum. So bullet jump is not always bad.

One of the key factors is forcing cone alignment with both the cylinder chambers and the axis of the bore. It also helps to have cylinder throats not too big. And not to mention forcing cone angles.

by desben Wed May 01, 2019 7:21 am

I load them proud by a finger nail's thickness. It gives the crimp something to bite into (?). That's how I was shown. In reality, I'd be surprised if it made a measurable difference. I only have a Model 14, but if I also had a 52, I would make sure the ammo can be used in both, personally.

by Al W. Wed May 01, 2019 9:09 am

Wobbley wrote:Is bullet jump bad? One of the most accurate revolvers I own is a Python in 357 Magnum. So bullet jump is not always bad.

One of the key factors is forcing cone alignment with both the cylinder chambers and the axis of the bore. It also helps to have cylinder throats not too big. And not to mention forcing cone angles.

A range pal shoots a L frame 686 in the long line at Perry also discounts the "jump".
Never been a problem for him , or so he says and he's a Distinguished shooter.

by Al W. Wed May 01, 2019 9:10 am

desben wrote:I load them proud by a finger nail's thickness. It gives the crimp something to bite into (?). That's how I was shown. In reality, I'd be surprised if it made a measurable difference. I only have a Model 14, but if I also had a 52, I would make sure the ammo can be used in both, personally.

My 14 likes a different projectile than the 52 so there's that .

by **Wobbley** Wed May 01, 2019 10:22 am

Al W. wrote:
desben wrote:I load them proud by a finger nail's thickness. It gives the crimp something to bite into (?). That's how I was shown. In reality, I'd be surprised if it made a measurable difference. I only have a Model 14, but if I also had a 52, I would make sure the ammo can be used in both, personally.
My 14 likes a different projectile than the 52 so there's that .

It seems that guns are like toddlers at dinner time. You have to feed them what they like or holy hell breaks loose. lol!

by Allgoodhits Wed May 01, 2019 11:44 am

Revolver bullet jump and wadcutters.

That has debated for decades. There has been more than one 'smith who cut the cylinder back to just ahead of the wadcutters, then set the barrel back through the frame to reach the face of the shortened cylinder. Although this sounded like a terrific idea, it mad no difference in accuracy shooting WCs. A quality revolver with proper timing, barrel cylinder gap, throat and good crown shot well either way. I think the benefit of shortening the cylinder was threefold.

One, the cylinder face was machined square, so barrel/cylinder gap was constant charge hole to charge hole.
Two, the mass of the cylinder was reduced, thus making slightly reduced rotational effect of the cylinder. Maybe a tad lighter trigger, but hardly measurable.
Three, if one was going to spend the time and money to shorten the cylinder they likely had other work done too. Such as recut the throat, crown the muzzle, check timing. These other things likely made the bulk of the accuracy improvement.

Taylor throating. If the gun is timed correctly and throat is cut properly and all other aspects are right, Taylor throating would add little. Some believe that the Taylor throating helped "if" the throat wasn't cut exactly right. They argued further, rather than do a Taylor throating, why not just cut the throat right? Sometimes, if you think it works, then it does and if you think it doesn't it doesn't.

Folks asked about good revolver 'smiths. They are becoming fewer for sure. I remember Jim Clark, Reeves Jungkind, Bill Davis, Travis Strahan, Lou Ciamillo, Ken Eversul and others.

Here are two that are still around.

Northern Virginia Gun Works in Springfield, VA

Mojo Custom Guns in Michigan.

by Al W. Wed May 01, 2019 7:08 pm

Allgoodhits wrote:Revolver bullet jump and wadcutters.

That has debated for decades. There has been more than one 'smith who cut the cylinder back to just ahead of the wadcutters, then set the barrel back through the frame to reach the face of the shortened cylinder. Although this sounded like a terrific idea, it mad no difference in accuracy shooting WCs. A quality revolver with proper timing, barrel cylinder gap, throat and good crown shot well either way. I think the benefit of shortening the cylinder was threefold.

One, the cylinder face was machined square, so barrel/cylinder gap was constant charge hole to charge hole.
Two, the mass of the cylinder was reduced, thus making slightly reduced rotational effect of the cylinder. Maybe a tad lighter trigger, but hardly measurable.
Three, if one was going to spend the time and money to shorten the cylinder they likely had other work done too. Such as recut the throat, crown the muzzle, check timing. These other things likely made the bulk of the accuracy improvement.

Taylor throating. If the gun is timed correctly and throat is cut properly and all other aspects are right, Taylor throating would add little. Some believe that the Taylor throating helped "if" the throat wasn't cut exactly right. They argued further, rather than do a Taylor throating, why not just cut the throat right? Sometimes, if you think it works, then it does and if you think it doesn't it doesn't.

Folks asked about good revolver 'smiths. They are becoming fewer for sure. I remember Jim Clark, Reeves Jungkind, Bill Davis, Travis Strahan, Lou Ciamillo, Ken Eversul and others.

Here are two that are still around.

Northern Virginia Gun Works in Springfield, VA

Mojo Custom Guns in Michigan.

All good information , Thanks !
It makes sense to see that this throat issue, if there is one , be treated first .
I have a 15 that needs some attention and although I know a few guys who are willing to work on the forcing cone , none of them have piped up about this Barrel/frame throat issue which I think is where my problem lies.
Thanks for the steer.

by DA/SA Wed May 01, 2019 8:18 pm

My 15 (bought used) was OK, but not real good, so I decided to look into it a bit. The first problem is that is suffered "thread choke" from an over torqued barrel so the bore was constricted where the threads were. Sliding a gauge pin down the bore revealed that. I removed the barrel to machine the barrel face back a bit and found that someone had dorked with the forcing cone in an attempt to make it 11°, and in doing so the forcing cone was no longer concentric with the barrel bore. I ended up re-machining the forcing cone and got that all pretty happy. After that it started to shoot pretty well, but still a little off. I got checking other things, slugged the bore, and found the cylinder throats a bit small, so I fixed that and it's doing pretty well so far. Still have a few things more to do.

Just a few areas to look into if you can.

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