Strategy for long line 45 loads.

I'm trying to get a long line load established. I've kind of been shuffling around my standard loads this year. This year I found and love the 160 grain bullet for the short line, since my slide is so heavy I have to push it to 800fps for reliability but am able to get very good groups at 25 and the recoil is noticeably less than my old H&G 68 185gr short line load.

In the past I've used the Magnus #801 at 50 and have been testing some loaded ammo (Zero 185JHP which is right at 850fps). I've even thought of trying the 160 grain bullets at 50 if they hold 2.5" or better since they have less recoil. 

The Zero 185jhp seem very accurate but has more recoil. I'm also recoil sensitive so can't help but wonder if the gains I get from running a semi-hot JHP load are diminished by my ability to execute clean shots with the added recoil. 

So what I'm getting at is what have you guys have better results with,,, JHP or other high recoil yet accurate loads or going with down loaded lighter lead bullets that have less recoil but a bit less accuracy. I considered trying to load JHP and drop the FPS to just over the limit if them being reliable but I've always heard JHP bullets need speed to be the most accurate, for instance I'm not sure how much you would lose dropping from 850 to 750fps. I'm also open to going back to the Magnus #801.

I'm also considering getting a ransom rest. I can sandbag a 22 pretty well at 50 yards but a 45 is a bit harder and my results are often affected by my ability too much. I'm not sure if I'm getting a clear picture of what's going on.

Check out the Zero/Magnus 185gr L-SWCHP with 4.2 gr BE powder. As I slowly shoot up my other loads I am switching everything to that load. I have good results with 3.8gr also but doesn't cycle perfectly in all my 45's.

Len

Len, you're talking about the jacketed HP right... What is the FPS using 4.2 grains BE.

H&G #68 is 200 grains, TMBK.  H&G #130 is 185 grains. 
Good quality #68 with 3.6gr of BE is excellent at 50Y out of RR.  If only I could shoot it close to that!
AP

zanemoseley wrote:Len, you're talking about the jacketed HP right... What is the FPS using 4.2 grains BE.

I believe the Zero/Magnus 185gr L-SWCHP is the swaged lead bullet.  If so, be sure to expand the case more than is typically done for a hard cast bullet.  Whenever I expand the same as though it were hard cast, I got severe leading in the bore near the chamber end.  When I expand the case more so that the swaged lead is not reduced in diameter when seating, I had no leading issues.

So the #814 Magnus. I tried them, I liked loading them and they shot fine but I had a lot of leading. I seem to get some leading from my hard cast too now, probably because I'm pushing the 160 grain bullets over 800fps.

Why don’t you try the 160’s at 50 yards?

I do need to try the 160's more at 50. I'm really considering a RR to formally test how it shoots.

In my experience a good JHP load will be slightly more accurate than a good lead load (in my 2 pistols). The difference probably doesn't mean more than a few points in a 2700, so if you are searching for those last few points to make HM or 2630, it's probably worth it. otherwise...

Also in my experience, bullets running fairly hot will have approximately 2x the group size at 50 yards vs 25. I haven't really studied it, but slow loads can really drop off in accuracy, hotter loads are still stable and flying straight. If you've got a good load at 25, why not shoot it at 50?

I offer a few pieces of unsolicited advice, probably worth exactly what you pay for it.

Recoil won't hurt you. Just accept it. Especially in slow fire. Nothing we shoot is so hot it hurts. In sustained fire, recoil can be a factor, though personally, I prefer a sharper, harder recoil that finishes faster over a longer, slower recoil. That's why I shoot a frame mount, so the slide cycles faster, but I digress.

Second, if you've got a decent 160gr load, shoot it. Test it at 50, but most bullseye shooters worry about their gun and load too much. The truth is, a 2" gun/load combination doesn't really help a marksman all that much over a 4" or even a 6" group. My rule of thumb is when your off-hand groups are approaching 2x your rested groups, it's time to look at the accuracy of your loads. So a marksman trying to keep them all in the scoring rings will do better accepting a 6" gun and practicing more that spending time testing loads. You're bio says Expert in/out, so I assume you mostly shoot 7's or better at 50 yards. If your 160's shoot 2" at 25 they are probably fine for now.

zanemoseley wrote:Len, you're talking about the jacketed HP right... What is the FPS using 4.2 grains BE.

I tested 3.8 with 200 cast and got 690. So 3.8 & 185 cast would be 730? And 4.2 might be 780 ish?
I’ve found that 4.2 shoots a bit better with 200 and is my load of choice for jacketed HP.

The old Western load with a 210 grain SWC was listed at 710 fps and the Western 185 SWC Jacketed was listed at 775 fps.

So these are duplicating the factory target ammo.

I tested 3.8 with 200 cast and got 690. So 3.8 & 185 cast would be 730? And 4.2 might be 780 ish? 

Not necessarily, it depends more on the remaining case capacity after the bullet is seated and the specific powder burn curve vs pressure than the difference in bullet weight.  For 3.85 gr of VV310 & WLP primers and bullet seated on the shoulder to +/- 1.239 OAL; a 200 gr Oregon Trail SWC will have a higher muzzle velocity than a 180 gr Oregon Trail SWC when seated exactly the same.  (Mostly because there is more remaining case capacity with the 180 gr bullet.)  And the SD for velocity is lower with the 200 gr load.  Remember we're using progressive powders with different burn curves vs case capacity and the results can be interesting due to the many variables.  Just another reason why a gun will have function problems when going from a very low recoil load with a heavier bullet to a lighter bullet (depending on the bullet configuration).  And a reason the old shooters used the "button nose" bullets to get lighter loads.  They used up more case capacity when seated.

Keep trying the magnus/zero 185 LSWCHP.. simple cure for the leading is to clean the bullets with minetal spirits then coat them with white label lubes 45-45-10. Very accurate lead bullet.
 I simply coat the bullets  via the tumble method. Works perfectly
 I also use this method for 148 HBWC in 38.

3.9 of BE works fine for the 185 swaged bullet

4.2 of BE for the 185 JSWC is a perfect compromise.load with less recoil.

SteveT wrote:Recoil won't hurt you...

Before my injury, I would agree.  However, since the injury, I have also been searching for lighter recoil loads.  For me, it was find something I could handle or give up the sport and go home.  So whenever 200 gr or JHP loads are recommended, I now have to politely ignore.

I have found a short line load that is both accurate (enough for me) and something I can handle (it is a 160 gr with 4.0 of N310).  However, I am still looking for a post-injury long line load.  Right now I am settling for the Magnus #801 with 3.85 gr of N310 but am still looking since at the last match it started to bother me and switched to my short line load for the long line.

joy2shoot wrote:

SteveT wrote:Recoil won't hurt you...

Before my injury, I would agree.  However, since the injury, I have also been searching for lighter recoil loads.  For me, it was find something I could handle or give up the sport and go home.  So whenever 200 gr or JHP loads are recommended, I now have to politely ignore.

I have found a short line load that is both accurate (enough for me) and something I can handle (it is a 160 gr with 4.0 of N310).  However, I am still looking for a post-injury long line load.  Right now I am settling for the Magnus #801 with 3.85 gr of N310 but am still looking since at the last match it started to bother me and switched to my short line load for the long line.

Point taken. 

I use 4.4gr N310 with 160gr lead. It shoots really well in my guns.

jglenn21 wrote:Keep trying the magnus/zero 185 LSWCHP.. simple cure for the leading is to clean the bullets with minetal spirits then coat them with white label lubes 45-45-10. Very accurate lead bullet.
 I simply coat the bullets  via the tumble method. Works perfectly

I just add the white label over Terry's factory lube on the 811.  

I heat it first, drizzle a bit over a baking tray of bullets, swirl them around and let them dry on wax paper.   No leading since (lots before with swaged).

I do have to clean my seating die more often with that shortcut, but still less time overall vs. cleaning them first.  Added benefit is one less chemical exposure (I had too much as a factory man in my youth).

As the 811 has shorter base-to-shoulder (than the 185 HP 814), I have settled on 4.2 N310.   No chrono to offer FPS data.

SteveT wrote:
I use 4.4gr N310 with 160gr lead. It shoots really well in my guns.

When I get a moment, I will have to try that at 50 yds.  This is the best I could do at 50 yds using a 160 gr bullet, 4.0 N310 on a sandbag.  I called the 8 so it was not a flier, but a bad shot.

Thomas, 

4.3 of Bullseye with the .452 cast 160 (measured diameter .4515+) gave the best results in my RR testing of lead. From the case head to the shoulder of the bullet was .932, cases were once fired WCC match  (1975 and 1987 head stamps). Once fired Starline were a tiny bit better but new Starline was not as good even when lubed to try to prevent the powder funnel from sticking.  These were loaded on the Square deal B.

The first time that I shot the load in practice at 50 it was a 97-5x (still a personal best for me). It always shot inside of call too. Now you are a Master and I am a Sharpshooter so your mileage may vary. 

Mike Davis

I am going through the same thing.   Myself and my Wife.   I ordered some Brazos 180  SWC fb.   Loaded them to the best length for the gun with 4.5 WST.   Less than 2" @ 50 yards using a 6X scope and sand bags.  WOW, a great load.   Problem is it has a little too much recoil for her.    First shot is usually a 10, but it goes down hill from there.  Not always 10 on the long line target.  She has been shooting 200 swc with 4.0 WST.   Returning to the lighter load.  

Life is better now that I have a girl that likes to shoot.   We shoot 2 informal matches a week.  Rimfire and center fire.  That makes 120 rounds each per week.  

She is 62, been shooting with me 2 years.  She uses 2 hands and we don't count her score.  

I did the same thing my self.    Bought some Zero 185 JHP.  I  found 4.7 BE shot best groups at 50 yards from off the bench with sand bags.   I had trouble controlling the gun. Slow fire scores suffered.   Going back to the Barazo 200 SWC with 4.0-4.2 BE depending on what groups best.  

This is what SteveT is saying.   10 on the paper of a 3" load is better than 9 on the paper of a 1.7" load.   Its a never ending process.   

David

Jerry Keefeer and I had been saying this for quite some time. Shoot a load that doesn't fatigue you and still provides good 50 yd accuracy. My 3.8gr BE loads routinely shot 1.75" at 50 yds. Most of us are getting up there in years and don't have the strength and stamina of the guys at AMU. They can train regularly with hotter 185 jhp ammunition and reap the rewards of the tighter grouping ammunition. Us mortals need all the help we can get. Shoot them softer. I do enjoy shooting 200's.
I still need to try the 160's
Jon

Sorry it took so long to respond. I do mean the swaged bullets. The neat thing about the 185 Hollow point is that they have the same bearing surface as most 200gr bullets. But since they weigh less what you get is a bullet as accurate as a 200gr with the potential for less recoil. Here are a couple of groups shot at 25 yds with the two loads. One handed. But, wrist was resting on a sand bag.  

Jon Eulette wrote:Jerry Keefeer and I had been saying this for quite some time. Shoot a load that doesn't fatigue you and still provides good 50 yd accuracy. My 3.8gr BE loads routinely shot 1.75" at 50 yds. Most of us are getting up there in years and don't have the strength and stamina of the guys at AMU. They can train regularly with hotter 185 jhp ammunition and reap the rewards of the tighter grouping ammunition. Us mortals need all the help we can get. Shoot them softer. I do enjoy shooting 200's.
I still need to try the 160's
Jon

  Jon are you shooting 200 or 185 grainers with 3.8 loading? I'm shooting 180s with 3.9 BE and it sometimes won't cycle well in this Clark Heavy Slide (9lb spring 19 main), usually happens in slow fire thankfully. Maybe a different loading will help, otherwise it could be more pistol issues.
  I'm thinking I'll send it to you after I get my RO back.
 Stan

I have a heavy slide (not Clark) and it runs fine with 3.8 BE and a 200 cast. Shoots too!

Chopper, try 200 go with 3.5 -3.7 BE

chopper, I run 180 flat base lead bullets with 4.0 of WST and they function perfectly for me with a 10lb recoil spring.. I run 4.4 of WST on the 160s...

Federal 185 gr is listed at 770 fps. Federal link