Cause of Barrel Leading

Hi all:  Years ago I used the Star 185 gr bullet with great success. I used 4.0gr Bullseye under them and crimped to .468. That gave me right around 750fps. They shot just as well as the Remington jacketed 185 SWC. I had no leading at all with them the whole summer I used them. Then all of a sudden the accuracy went down the tube. I checked and the barrel was severely leaded. I cleaned it all out and shot them again. Within 100 rounds, the accuracy was gone again. This happened several times in a row, so I quit using them. Recently I came across a good deal on 8000 of them. I have cleaned the black lube off some of them and tumble lubed them with 45-45-10. Same load, same crimp. I shot around 200 of the tumble lubed ones from a freshly cleaned barrel (different guns-different barrels) and checked the barrel. Severe leading again. I then tried some of the bullets with the original black lube- same results with two different guns. I have tried dropping the powder charge down as far as 3.7gr. BE and crimp down to .466. I do not know what is causing this. Does anybody have any ideas why this is happening and any suggestions on what I might try to fix this problem as I would really like to use these bullets. I know that somebody on here has some idea of what is causing this. Thank you in advance.
Paul

Maybe the bullet isn't sealing. I shoot the Star 185 gr. SWCHP with from 4.2- 4.6 grains of Bullseye and get no leading in my SA Trophy Match. I taper crimp to .470" with Dillon dies. Try bumping up the powder charge to 4.2 grains and see what happens. Could it be that you are using thick cases, i.e. military brass and the inside diameter is swaging the bullets down? I've also heard that bullets can harden over time and that could lead to the bullet not sealing like they did many years ago. It has been some time since Star went out of business.

BE Mike wrote: Could it be that you are using thick cases, i.e. military brass and the inside diameter is swaging the bullets down?

This made me curious. I know that military 7.62 brass is thicker than commercial .308 Winchester brass, but never heard it about .45 ACP brass. I measured some WCC .45 cases and compared them to some Federal, Winchester brass cases and some Federal nickel cases. They all measured the same.

Just a question but are you using different reloading dies now than you used before?
Other than that I have no answer.  I use the same bullet with 3.7 of BE and never had any leading problem in 4 different pistols.

Virgil

Lead softens over time.  This should not matter because you are using soft lead.  

This is odd.   Can you describe where its leading?  Right after the chamber or at the muzzle?  

No the bullet is not sealing.   A swift kick in the butt should make it swell and fit the barrel, but that is not what you need or looking for.  Can you mic a couple bullets and make sure they are .452"
Can you slug your barrel?  

Do other bullets lead?  I switched to powder coated and never looked back.  Now I use Brazos coated in all my calibers.   I WAS  a bullet caster.
David

Something is different on the reloading process as others suggested .

Same gun and barrel? Could be a factor . Don't use the thicker Federal cases. And scrap Amercs if you have any.

Try unresized cases and less crimp. Soft lead shoots beautifully but requires care in loading.

Bullet Diameter-  Should be .452"  The loading process may be sizing the bullets smaller.  Check the expander diameter, should be about .451" to no smaller the.450"  Do not use a Lee factory crimp die. 

Taper crimp to just remove the bell/flare so rounds just drop into the chamber.

Are you using different brass?  Some will cause neck tension to be over 100 pounds to just move the bullet.  Try some New Starline Brass.

Slug your barrel and compare to bullet size.  Bullets should ideally be about .001 over the groove diameter.  Too small and you get leading almost no matter what you do.

Agree 100% with 243inxb. Did you measure the diameter of the bullets and/or slug your barrel? I have dip lubed some previously lubed bullets in alox or 45-45-10. No need to remove old lube, just lube over it. Works quite well with commercial cast bullets with poor lube...

David R wrote:Lead softens over time.  This should not matter because you are using soft lead.

Oddly enough, harder lead melts at a lower temperature than pure.  Having said that, my 200 grain SWC load (does not lead barrel) uses 4.2 grains of Bullseye, so your loads do not appear to be excessive.  Bullets are "West Coast Bullets, Inc.", which is now "X-Treme Bullets."  NOTE:  These bullets are per the website at https://www.xtremebullets.com/Lead-Pistol-Bullets-45-s/48070.htm, lubricant is in the grooves, and not tumbled onto the projectile surface.

Agree that sizing and lubrication matter, but another issue is keeping the temperature of the base and heel of the bullet below the melting point.  If bullet diameter is correct (.451" or .452" is typical), one simple thing to try is placing a bullet diameter card/piece of thin cardboard/thin piece of polyethylene plastic on top of the powder before setting the bullet atop the case.  The latter item is sometimes called a "P-Wad", and can be made by punching discs from a milk jug.  Or, they are fairly inexpensive if you are not interested in making several thousand of them.  

• https://www.neconos.com/item/NECO-P-WADS-69 is an online source - these are apparently made from PVC;
  
• https://www.buffaloarms.com/reloading-supplies-accessories/wads/poly-wads is a link for polyethylene wads. 
  

Hope this helps.

Crimping below .469 may be over crimping and causing your leading! 

Smiles,

Thank you to all who answered:

Just a question but are you using different reloading dies now than you used before?
   No , I'm using the same Dillon dies now that I used years ago when the problem first appeared. When the problem first appeared years ago, it was in a batch of 2000 that I loaded all at the same time. I had shot around half of the batch before the leading started. That is when I just shot the rest of the batch to just 'get rid of them'.

This is odd.   Can you describe where its leading?  Right after the chamber or at the muzzle?  
   The barrel is leading from the right ahead of the chamber and all the way to the muzzle. When I shot them years ago, I just fired them at a berm just to get rid of them. After 500-700 rounds, the barrel was so leaded you could not see the rifling at all. It looked like a smooth-bore. The shots were sometimes as much as 8 to 10 feet away from the point on the berm I was aiming at. I was like shooting an 8 foot group.


Do other bullets lead?
   No, I use my cast H&G 130 and have used Zero SWCHP out of the same barrel with no problems, so this just baffles me.


Did you measure the diameter of the bullets
   Just measured a half dozen at .452.


Crimping below .469 may be over crimping and causing your leading!
   If that would be the case, then why would the Zero bullets (which are also swedged) crimped to .467 not also lead the barrel? It is my understanding that they are just as soft as the Star bullets.
   
I have spoken with another guy around here that uses the same bullet, same powder charge, same crimp and primer and he has absolutely no leading at all, so I cannot figure out what is going on. Maybe I'm just lucky!
Paul
   

Take one of your loaded rounds, pull the bullet, and measure it. 

That will tell you if it is being swaged down during the loading process.

Edit: 
I just measured the Dillon expander/powder funnel and it is .447", so having a minimum of .005" interference could cause definitely cause swaging with soft lead. Depending on the case elasticity, it could be swaging even more.

I had to look for my Dillon as I made my own expander/funnel to suit the diameter and width of the bullets I use for that reason.

I don't disagree with your theory that the Zero's should have the same leading issue since they are swaged as well, but it isn't a guarantee that the lead s identical.

Odds are, again, the bullets are too small. Slug the barrel and order bullets at LEAST 0.001" LARGER than actual groove diameter.
Bullet bases do NOT melt. Leading occurs due to hot gasses passing between the bullet bearing surface and the barrel. This is caused by a bullet that is too small
A bullet that is too soft for the velocity it is being pushed to can strip off lead onto the leading edge of the groove.
If you were to see leading over the last half or so of the barrel, it would mean the lubricant was failing.
After almost 50 years of casting, I find that fit and lube are almost all that matters and alloy is really not important.
I find that a very light coating of Lee Liquid Alox eliminates almost all leading. It is a very tenacious coating that resists hot gasses.
Even better, start with coated swaged lead bullets from Precision Bullets.

^^^^^^^ that ^

And maybe your loads will leadup your friends gun too?

I had a barrel like that on a 9, no visible rifling at all. Wouldn't come out either. Guy had fired box after box of .355 re manufactured ammo in a .357 groove . I came up with firebrushing to remove it easily.

bruce martindale wrote:^^^^^^^ that ^

And maybe your loads will leadup your friends gun too?

I had a barrel like that on a 9, no visible rifling at all. Wouldn't come out either. Guy had fired box after box of .355 re manufactured ammo in a .357 groove . I came up with firebrushing to remove it easily.

I've heard the term firebrushing used in rifle barrel break in but not in cleaning. I assume you mean to get the barrel hot and then clean? Please correct me if wrong.

Bill

Based on your description of the events, past and present, I would first recommend doing a complete cleaning of your barrel.  Some barrels don't mind alternating lead and  jacketed, others will just drive you nuts.

ANY jacket or carbon material left in the bore can cause issues with swaged lead.  Spend some quality time with some Sweets 7.62, Kroil and JB bore paste until you are tired and then do it again.  

Even a little jacket material and carbon build up can also hide corrosion beginning to develop underneath.  

And then the lead sticks, and lead just loves to stick to lead.....

CR

Years ago I found my barrel leaded real bad.  I was trying different powder amounts with the same commercial LSWC.  Hotter loads leaded real bad.  Slower loads with less of the same powder shot clean.  I do no remember what bullet it was.

Paul, I can't remember if you got one of these powder drops yet. I like mine and I get no leading, where before I did with one of my old loads in that Heavy Slide and I still kept the crimp at .465". It's too bad we can't leave more bullet exposed to fit in the leade, but that would screw with the feeding then. Check one of them bullets hardness, bet they're about 8, might try a slower powder. Anyway this is a picture of the tube.
 Stan

DA/SA wrote:Take one of your loaded rounds, pull the bullet, and measure it. 

That will tell you if it is being swaged down during the loading process.

Edit: 
I just measured the Dillon expander/powder funnel and it is .447", so having a minimum of .005" interference could cause definitely cause swaging with soft lead. Depending on the case elasticity, it could be swaging even more.

I had to look for my Dillon as I made my own expander/funnel to suit the diameter and width of the bullets I use for that reason.

I don't disagree with your theory that the Zero's should have the same leading issue since they are swaged as well, but it isn't a guarantee that the lead s identical.

I changed to a larger expander because the soft bullets would swage down some and lead a bit. Using Magnus 185 swc hp bullets. I think I got the expander from Photoescape. I shoot a lot of mixed brass and load on a 1050 with Dillon dies. No leading issues at all now.

Hi Paul,
I have a mold that drops right at .452. A couple years back I started using 45-45-10 because it was so much faster than using the lube sizer since the bullets didn’t need sizing anyway. Sure enough, I started seeing an unusual amount of leading. I went back to my regular lube and the leading went away. 
Maybe try lubing with straight liquid alox. 
Jim

Caster3845:

I would not recommend Sweets for cleaning when shooting lead.  The ammonia is not needed for lead and is a little aggressive for the barrel surface. 

I got / get better results cleaning with some regular cleaner (Hoppes) first then finishing up with lots of brushing with Kroil to get the barrel really clean.  Leave a little film of Kroil in the barrel when you store (it will help continue to help free the carbon and lead) and then just patch the barrel before you shoot.  You'd be surprised how the patch looks after just 24 hours or so. 

Once it's really clean and not leading, I've found that after a while, you can just use the Kroil for cleaning when shooting lead.

Several of us have "suggested" you slug the barrel.  This kind of problem is almost always a bullet too small.  You cannot know it's too small unless you slug the barrel.

I'm going to piggyback....

Maybe it's good that I don't know the answer. But what does leading look like? After about 500 rounds I get a little lead build up th first like half inch of the barrel at approx 4-8 o'clock. It takes some effort to get off, but it doesn't seem to effect accuracy in any way. Is this leading or just a dirty barrel from use? I honestly always assumed I just didn't clean her enough haha.