Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
+19
mikemyers
farmboy
Brent375hh
james r chapman
rburk
Wobbley
Dr.Don
GME
PhotoEscape
whitez06
bruce martindale
7tcu
Aprilian
joy2shoot
xman
STEVE SAMELAK
kc.crawford.7
john bickar
lanjo
23 posters
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Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
Hi All,
I think I finally got my Model 41 running well enough to avoid FTE. Part of the solution is to add a touch of oil on the top round. I am unsure if this will cause problems with the gun over many years of doing it. Has anyone put oil on the top round this for extended periods of time (10+ years)? Any problems aquired over this time?
I am currently using Rem Oil for this. It has Teflon in it. I would assume the Teflon would build up over time and clog the chamber. Any suggestions on the type of oil to use for this?
Best,
Joe
I think I finally got my Model 41 running well enough to avoid FTE. Part of the solution is to add a touch of oil on the top round. I am unsure if this will cause problems with the gun over many years of doing it. Has anyone put oil on the top round this for extended periods of time (10+ years)? Any problems aquired over this time?
I am currently using Rem Oil for this. It has Teflon in it. I would assume the Teflon would build up over time and clog the chamber. Any suggestions on the type of oil to use for this?
Best,
Joe
lanjo- Posts : 103
Join date : 2015-02-22
Location : Richmond, VA
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
You're fine.
john bickar- Posts : 2269
Join date : 2011-07-09
Age : 100
Location : Menlo Park, CA
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
NEVER oil any ammunition period end of conversation. The resulting increase in chamber pressure can be catastrophic.
spursnguns, bcbasslet, chopper, Fotomaniac and classicbob like this post
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
Time for the popcorn!!!
JMO...I think the oil trick is just a patch hiding a larger problem, it may get you thru the match but I would invest in further investigation and find the real problem.
JMO...I think the oil trick is just a patch hiding a larger problem, it may get you thru the match but I would invest in further investigation and find the real problem.
STEVE SAMELAK- Posts : 956
Join date : 2011-06-10
Steve B, troystaten, farmboy, bcbasslet and chopper like this post
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
I have been told that too..to oil the top round to "fix" my failure to fully eject. It has helped some but not a total cure.
I am going the new extractor route as my fired cases are coming out about 3/4 of the way and the extractor is not finishing the job.
I do not have a topbridge on my M41, it is a Clark STC upper and the oil sprays up into the rear sight glass and needs to be cleaned off after nearly every string and periodically during SF.
The oiling helps about 50% of the time. But not a long term fix.
See my post "Beloved M41 is in the shop"
I am going the new extractor route as my fired cases are coming out about 3/4 of the way and the extractor is not finishing the job.
I do not have a topbridge on my M41, it is a Clark STC upper and the oil sprays up into the rear sight glass and needs to be cleaned off after nearly every string and periodically during SF.
The oiling helps about 50% of the time. But not a long term fix.
See my post "Beloved M41 is in the shop"
xman- Posts : 497
Join date : 2015-01-11
Age : 69
Location : Tyler,TX
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
Warning. I may sound like I know what I am talking about, but my wife respectfully disagrees.
The reason cases are made from a relatively soft metal (brass) is to allow the case to expand inside the chamber when firing. This is intentional because it ensures a well-sealed chamber, which is what you want.
When you put oil on ammo, then as the slide closes and the cartridge is inserted into the chamber, oil is spread
around the walls of the chamber. This works against a well-sealed chamber.
Will this help with the extraction of the spent case? The answer is Yes for the wrong reason. Because of the oil on the walls of the chamber, the spent case is not as tightly sealed as it should be. Thus, it is easier to remove.
Here is what the M41 owner’s manual says about FTEs. “Some brands of ammunition may cause difficulty in extracting spent cartridge cases from the cylinder or chamber. If this situation occurs, thoroughly clean the cylinder charge holes or chamber with solvent. If this condition persists, we recommend changing to another brand of ammunition.”
I would add that after cleaning the chamber, dry it. And if after using different brands of ammo you still have FTE, have a qualified gunsmith look at the extractor and extractor tension.
The reason cases are made from a relatively soft metal (brass) is to allow the case to expand inside the chamber when firing. This is intentional because it ensures a well-sealed chamber, which is what you want.
When you put oil on ammo, then as the slide closes and the cartridge is inserted into the chamber, oil is spread
around the walls of the chamber. This works against a well-sealed chamber.
Will this help with the extraction of the spent case? The answer is Yes for the wrong reason. Because of the oil on the walls of the chamber, the spent case is not as tightly sealed as it should be. Thus, it is easier to remove.
Here is what the M41 owner’s manual says about FTEs. “Some brands of ammunition may cause difficulty in extracting spent cartridge cases from the cylinder or chamber. If this situation occurs, thoroughly clean the cylinder charge holes or chamber with solvent. If this condition persists, we recommend changing to another brand of ammunition.”
I would add that after cleaning the chamber, dry it. And if after using different brands of ammo you still have FTE, have a qualified gunsmith look at the extractor and extractor tension.
joy2shoot- Posts : 570
Join date : 2014-08-02
Location : North Carolina
bcbasslet and classicbob like this post
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
Len had a really good post on his theory about the bottom of the bolt not being lubricated is what the oil on the top round addresses. https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t10174-sw-41-stove-piping#87997
Aprilian- Posts : 987
Join date : 2016-05-13
Location : Minnesota
james r chapman likes this post
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
Lets see M41 has FTFE /failure to fully extract from the chamber.
Cleaned chamber ...Check. Hoppes and Shooters Choice Multiple passes
Use different brand of ammo/dry chamber ... Check. CCI SV, Aquila SE SV and Eley Target
Get the M41 to a qualified gunsmith ... Check. Given a Volquartsen extractor to install and inspect spring tension.
Cleaned chamber ...Check. Hoppes and Shooters Choice Multiple passes
Use different brand of ammo/dry chamber ... Check. CCI SV, Aquila SE SV and Eley Target
Get the M41 to a qualified gunsmith ... Check. Given a Volquartsen extractor to install and inspect spring tension.
xman- Posts : 497
Join date : 2015-01-11
Age : 69
Location : Tyler,TX
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
STEVE SAMELAK wrote:Time for the popcorn!!!
Well, ain't that the truth.
I'm not going to disagree publicly or start a "war of words" with KC. I respect his opinion and I know that it is based on significant experience.
john bickar- Posts : 2269
Join date : 2011-07-09
Age : 100
Location : Menlo Park, CA
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
It works, put the drop of oil on the case right behind the bullet. I had to do this for the first 400 or 500 rounds on my new 41 and then one day I forgot to do this and it started to function without any. I did not worry about pressure
7tcu- Posts : 111
Join date : 2017-04-26
Age : 76
Location : Gulf Coast of Texas
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
"Oil it" Allen Fulford. Look him up, he ain't no piker.
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
Seems some people don't understand hydraulic pressure MHOP
whitez06- Posts : 46
Join date : 2013-09-01
Location : wernersville,pa
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
john bickar wrote:STEVE SAMELAK wrote:Time for the popcorn!!!
Well, ain't that the truth.
I'm not going to disagree publicly or start a "war of words" with KC. I respect his opinion and I know that it is based on significant experience.
john bickar and Dockokol like this post
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
When I was advised by a Master shooter he demonstrated how to oil up the top bullet in the magazine. He placed a silver of oil/lube from the rim to the bullet tip.7tcu wrote:It works, put the drop of oil on the case right behind the bullet. I had to do this for the first 400 or 500 rounds on my new 41 and then one day I forgot to do this and it started to function without any. I did not worry about pressure
Seemed like a lot to me. It worked sporadically but from the chamber face to the bolt face was swimming with lube/oil. It cause another problem. The excess oil was being propelled out of the loading chamber and micro droplets were coating the rear sight optic. My upper has no bridge, it is an open loading port.
xman- Posts : 497
Join date : 2015-01-11
Age : 69
Location : Tyler,TX
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
kc.crawford.7 wrote:john bickar wrote:STEVE SAMELAK wrote:Time for the popcorn!!!
Well, ain't that the truth.
I'm not going to disagree publicly or start a "war of words" with KC. I respect his opinion and I know that it is based on significant experience.
john bickar- Posts : 2269
Join date : 2011-07-09
Age : 100
Location : Menlo Park, CA
kc.crawford.7 likes this post
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
kc.crawford.7 wrote:NEVER oil any ammunition period end of conversation. The resulting increase in chamber pressure can be catastrophic.
2nd to JB - "I'm not going to disagree publicly or start a "war of words" with KC. I respect his opinion and I know that it is based on significant experience."
I oil entire stuck when shooting certain ammo (i.e. Federal GM and some other) out of my 6" Kart! That represents more than 2/3rd of 19048 rounds fired through this gun as of today.
AP
PhotoEscape- Admin
- Posts : 1534
Join date : 2018-05-15
Location : Northern Illinois, USA
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
This discussion got me thinking. I have a 35+ year old Mod 41. I mostly shoot SK Pistol Match ammo. Seems to work fine in my 41. However, as anyone who shoots SK knows, the cartridges have a "generous" coating of lube on them. Some wipe it off; others, like me, don't.
So, if oiling the 1st round can be problematic, why isn't using heavily lubed SK also problematic -- or is it?
Gary
So, if oiling the 1st round can be problematic, why isn't using heavily lubed SK also problematic -- or is it?
Gary
GME- Posts : 151
Join date : 2020-09-27
Age : 74
Location : Gig Harbor, WA
LenV likes this post
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
I think it may have to do with the viscosity comparison between "oil" and the bullet "lube" Oil is a lot more viscous than the bullet lube. And the application amount of the "oil" can vary greatly shooter to shooter.GME wrote:This discussion got me thinking. I have a 35+ year old Mod 41. I mostly shoot SK Pistol Match ammo. Seems to work fine in my 41. However, as anyone who shoots SK knows, the cartridges have a "generous" coating of lube on them. Some wipe it off; others, like me, don't.
So, if oiling the 1st round can be problematic, why isn't using heavily lubed SK also problematic -- or is it?
Gary
xman- Posts : 497
Join date : 2015-01-11
Age : 69
Location : Tyler,TX
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
I'm with KC on this. And so was Jerry Keefer.
Dr.Don- Posts : 816
Join date : 2012-10-31
Location : Cedar Park, TX
spursnguns and chopper like this post
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
A bit of a misconception here, I think. The typical 22LR bullet lube is a wax that the loaded round has been dipped into a molten pot thereof to apply it. It congeals as a thin coating. When the round is fired, it gets squeezed everywhere, hence the goo that you get to clean off the bolt and breech face. SK is dipping into a (most likely synthetic) oil, again the excess gets squeezed out into the action. (It has to go somewhere). Gun oils at room temperature have viscosities around 10-20 centistokes. Which is pretty light. Oil on the top loaded rounds will tend to thin the residual goo left in the chamber and aid in extraction. Any increase in bolt thrust or pressure is within limits. 22LR operates at around 25000 psi. An oily chamber won’t increase the pressures beyond 10% if that much considering it’s coated in waxy goo anyway.xman wrote:I think it may have to do with the viscosity comparison between "oil" and the bullet "lube" Oil is a lot more viscous than the bullet lube. And the application amount of the "oil" can vary greatly shooter to shooter.GME wrote:This discussion got me thinking. I have a 35+ year old Mod 41. I mostly shoot SK Pistol Match ammo. Seems to work fine in my 41. However, as anyone who shoots SK knows, the cartridges have a "generous" coating of lube on them. Some wipe it off; others, like me, don't.
So, if oiling the 1st round can be problematic, why isn't using heavily lubed SK also problematic -- or is it?
Gary
Wobbley- Admin
- Posts : 4776
Join date : 2015-02-12
bruce martindale and Gustavo1957 like this post
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
Wobbley wrote:A bit of a misconception here, I think. The typical 22LR bullet lube is a wax that the loaded round has been dipped into a molten pot thereof to apply it. It congeals as a thin coating. When the round is fired, it gets squeezed everywhere, hence the goo that you get to clean off the bolt and breech face. SK is dipping into a (most likely synthetic) oil, again the excess gets squeezed out into the action. (It has to go somewhere). Gun oils at room temperature have viscosities around 10-20 centistokes. Which is pretty light. Oil on the top loaded rounds will tend to thin the residual goo left in the chamber and aid in extraction. Any increase in bolt thrust or pressure is within limits. 22LR operates at around 25000 psi. An oily chamber won’t increase the pressures beyond 10% if that much considering it’s coated in waxy goo anyway.xman wrote:I think it may have to do with the viscosity comparison between "oil" and the bullet "lube" Oil is a lot more viscous than the bullet lube. And the application amount of the "oil" can vary greatly shooter to shooter.GME wrote:This discussion got me thinking. I have a 35+ year old Mod 41. I mostly shoot SK Pistol Match ammo. Seems to work fine in my 41. However, as anyone who shoots SK knows, the cartridges have a "generous" coating of lube on them. Some wipe it off; others, like me, don't.
So, if oiling the 1st round can be problematic, why isn't using heavily lubed SK also problematic -- or is it?
Gary
What she said +1
xman- Posts : 497
Join date : 2015-01-11
Age : 69
Location : Tyler,TX
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
Wobbley wrote:centistoke
I found my word of the day for today. "The centistoke is a unit of measurement of kinematic viscosity."
I'm going to give myself bonus points if I can squeeze it into a work conversation.
E.g., "Anything you can to do reduce the friction on this process by even a centistoke would be appreciated."
I'll report back.
john bickar- Posts : 2269
Join date : 2011-07-09
Age : 100
Location : Menlo Park, CA
kc.crawford.7, ric1911a1, xman, chiz1180, rburk and Motophotog7 like this post
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
john bickar wrote:Wobbley wrote:centistoke
I found my word of the day for today. "The centistoke is a unit of measurement of kinematic viscosity."
I'm going to give myself bonus points if I can squeeze it into a work conversation.
E.g., "Anything you can to do reduce the friction on this process by even a centistoke would be appreciated."
I'll report back.
That is poisetively excellent!
rburk- Posts : 165
Join date : 2019-09-25
Location : SoCal
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
Wobbley wrote:waxy goo
I'm giving myself double points if I can work this phrase into a work conversation today.
john bickar- Posts : 2269
Join date : 2011-07-09
Age : 100
Location : Menlo Park, CA
Re: Model 41 - oil on the top round long term.
john bickar wrote:Wobbley wrote:waxy goo
I'm giving myself double points if I can work this phrase into a work conversation today.
A Facebook ad for Ear Wax Removal devices!
With pictures!!!
james r chapman- Admin
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Age : 75
Location : HELL, Michigan
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