Steadying the dot question

Hi
I am looking for some advice on getting the dot into a smaller holding pattern , if that makes sense. 

I have shot the 45 exclusively all winter and with a tremendous amount of dry fire time I can now generally keep the holes in the black.  This is a big deal for me and I am actually very pleased with my progress. So now I'm fooling with the 45 and the 22 , and I am realising,  with either gun my hold pattern is the size of the black. This may or may not have to do with the fact that just getting it in the black has always been my goal. So basically I have no chance of trying to get a ten when my muzzle is just bouncing back and forth between the edges of the black. I have generally been happy just getting the trigger back without disturbing that pattern. 

So now it's time to step up my game and I don't know how to do it . I do the holding exercise prescribed by Keith Sanderson every morning.  I dry fire way more than live fire. I grip the pistol strong, it leaves an imprint on my hand when I'm done. And I have tried relaxing  the grip a little to reduce shaking.  I am a good runner and a good swimmer for my age, so I really don't think it's a strength problem. 
Any advice greatly appreciated.  Thanks , Tom

I believe there is a range (pun intended) of hold areas based on each shooters physical makeup and experience level.  Some with have very small "wobble areas"; others may have large ones.  For example I once listened to Zins describe  how he liked the 2 moa dots because he could see the dot location inside the 10 / X ring better.  I can't hold or see that well so the concept was very alien to me.  But I began to understand that different people see differently and have different types of wobble / hold patterns.  But I do believe that for the most part, especially at the beginning of the hold, there will be a somewhat consistent pattern for each individual. 

Yes, you can shoot 10's with your wobble going back and forth across the black because that is the widest excursion, but if you look closely there will generally be a pattern or consistency during the early part of your hold that is somewhat smaller or at least more consistent.  It may not, well probably not, be as small as Zins, or completely still or even absolutely consistent, but there will be some time when the hold / wobble is the smallest, or more importantly, headed to the smallest part.  

Train on completing the trigger process as you realize your hold / wobble pattern is heading into its smallest wobble / hold based on what you see.  This is how a 8 or 9 ring wobble becomes a 10 or X.  And it can be done consistently.

As you begin to see the start of your best hold, that is the initiator of the completion of the shot process.  As you become more adept at seeing how your wobble works, then the trigger will get more and more consistent. Most people notice the widest excursions, you should be looking for the smallest or most consistent wobble times. 

Eventually, your shot process may just get to the point where the only thing you have to do is see everything and just decide when it doesn't look right and just start over.  If it looked good and the wobble was getting smaller, the gun will seem to go off at just the right time.

So, sorry I can't really tell you how to get a smaller hold / wobble pattern outside of just working on it and really seeing what's happening.  If I had a simple answer I would be shooting a lot better than I am now and selling it on the list.  But I can offer some suggestions on how to use what you got.  And if you are lucky, it just might help the wobble look smaller even if it isn't.

To tag on to what Cecil says.... Several years ago during Service rifle week at Camp Perry someone had several of the top shooters, Brandon Green and Sherri Gallagher are 2 that come to mind, dry fire on a Scatt. The traces were posted on the National Match forum without names attached. What was amazing was their holds didn't look that much different from say an expert level shooter, they just pulled the trigger at the right time without disturbing the gun.

Remember one thing, if your dot wonders from black edge to black edge it spends TWICE as much time in the 10 ring as it spends on the perimeter. The best way I can think of to visually demonstrate this by placing a biscuit cutter on a piece of paper, trace for a reference ring, close your eyes and draw figure 8's for a minute just touching the edges. When you are done you'll see that the middle is completely colored and the edges will be much lighter. We all want to have our sight picture to look like a black donut with a red center but I think Master class scores can be shot with an in the black wobble.

At the current Bullseye Bootcamp, Brian Zins said that most people wobble far better than they think and that no matter what YOUR wobble area is the fundamental is to complete the shot process when your wobble is in its smallest state.

  If the small state of your wobble isn’t in the center every shot, your foundation (position, stance, grip) needs some work to become consistent. When you dry fire, get a stopwatch in your non-gun hand and watch for when the wobble starts to get smaller.  Start the stopwatch when you notice the wobble decreasing and stop it when it “blows up”.  That’s the time you have to complete the trigger movement.  This is why trigger control is the hardest to master.  As you train that time should increase a little.  Do the stopwatch thing every 4 or 5 dry fire sessions.   See if that helps.

Thanks for the great replys. I am re reading them and will keep  at it.
Tom

When I was good at it, I trained by holding up a 2 lb weight for 1 minute while driving. Then down for one. You are thinking of the results but the results are based on the sum of the parts for which each can be practiced and trained separately from shooting.

The wobble will decrease within a time period and then increase. The trigger pressure can help reduce wobble. Trigger must be smooth and induce no motions. 

Getting it to all come together and release the shot ( notice l didn't say make  fire) when you're at center and getting the recovery while building trigger as it returns to center is the magic essence of the game. You'll know that feeling when you get it, and you'll never forget it.
Unfortunately it's a perishable skill and hard to do

The following is in addition to, not instead of, everything posted above.

Try two things - first, even if you think it's "silly", read the responses to this thread, in which I responded to Jon Eulette:
    https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t8884-balance-and-weight

Next, take your time, and read this page:
https://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/sound/Lesson-4/Natural-Frequency
    and better yet, the ABSTRACT on this page:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12206-015-0807-5


This is the only explanation for something that has now happened to me, twice, first with a S&W Model 41, and just recently with my High Standard X-Series.


I thought my gun was "vibrating", and somehow my own "vibrations" (heartbeat, breathing, whatever) were adding together, and making it worse.  So I did two things.  I removed the High Standard Barrel Weight from the front of the barrel, and replaced the Aimpoint H-1 Micro sight with a one inch Ultradot, mounted as far back as I could get it, meaning it's sort of centered over my hand wrapped around the stocks.  In both cases, the dot, which had been zipping around all over the black (explaining why my holes were all over the black) changed to a mostly solid "dot" that didn't move, except to jump around a small amount every time my heart beat.

The way I figure it, the gun wasn't causing any movement - but for my hand(s), it would be perfectly still.  The only reason my dot started moving around in that wild movement, is because of something *I* was doing to it with my hand(s). (Same thing now happens with one or two hands).

At the time I thought my gun must have a "natural frequency of vibration", and my own movements from my hand were amplifying it.  So, if I change the configuration of the gun, it would get much worse, or much better.  As I see it, removing the barrel weight had a minimal change, but replacing the short Aimpoint with the much longer Ultradot changed the natural frequency to something where the "vibrations from my hand" no longer affected the gun so much.


You all know what an out of balance tire is - as you approach a certain speed (frequency) the vibrations drastically increase, until you go beyond that point, and the tire seems to smooth out.  Same thing - when the tire, with this out of balance condition, reaches a certain point, it has a MUCH larger effect on the performance.

Take a glass filled half way with water, hold it in front of you, and move it to the right and left.  For a while not much will happen, but you'll reach a point where the water wants to jump right out of the glass.  


I can't prove a single thing I've written, but on two similar bullseye guns, 41 and High Standard, the same thing happened.  I suspect if you try different types of red dot sights, you might visibly see what I'm describing.  Maybe this is the real reason why Dave Salyer told me he prefers the one inch Ultradot.  For me, the difference was instantly visible in the sight.  The only thing the dot "moved" from was my heartbeat, which I could see as clearly as when I my cardiologist does an ECG.  

Anyway, something else to try.  

(I used to work for a company that made balancing machines for many different applications, and that's how and why I thought this might explain what my gun was doing.  I didn't need to look at the red dot, I could visibly see the front end of my barrel moving.  Now it just sits there.)

Mike
your glass of water thing made me think that your idea fits the don't think or do the negative.  Do the positive.  With your water in a glass idea in mind, fill a mug to the brim now hold it in pistol position and think keep the water in the mug.  Grip the mug as close to like a pistol as you can.  I bet your focus will be on that water just like it should be on your sights. 

Actually this reminds me of a drill LtC Miller had me do.  Balance a 1921 silver dollar on the front of your barrel.  Tape a flat adapter if needed to the barrel.  The drill is to hold the gun keeping the dollar there.  After several repeats, move your focus to the front sight keeping the dollar on the gun.  After successful repeats, dryfire while focusing on the front sight, keeping the dollar on the gun.  Marksman can start with a nickel and progress up in value    .

Pretty cool!!!!   ....and I actually do think I have several very old silver dollars.  Your LtC Miller was pretty wise!  Any other "tricks" he taught you?

The "Nickel Drill" I was taught was to balance the nickel on the front sight (normally done by a second person) and dry fire a shot without letting it fall off the sight.  The focus on the nickel was at the front sight, training you where to physically and mentally focus, and being able to drop the hammer without losing the nickel helped teach trigger.

Other drills I promote are to use vertical and horizontal lines on the wall to work on horizontal and vertical components of your hold.  You can also do live fire drills on vertical and horizontal lines at the range, using electrical tape on the back of full targets or backers.  If you use a bull during any holding drills, be sure to start with a full dry fire.  If you hold on a bull without operating the trigger, you will be practicing holding on the target without firing.  Dry fire and then hold when using a bull.

Ed Hall wrote:...........If you hold on a bull without operating the trigger, you will be practicing holding on the target without firing.  Dry fire and then hold when using a bull.......

I'm concentrating on shooting with a 22 High Standard, meaning dry-firing is out, although I guess I could load a magazine with snap caps.  Dave Salyer suggested I use my 45 for dry-fire. 

What I've been doing lately, with the 22, is to hold on a white wall, just to build up my strength, as recommended by Keith Sanderson.  One minute holding, two minutes resting, repeat eight times every day.  Hopefully that's a reasonable compromise.

this thread should be a sticky

Prior to the above changes, my group size with my High Standard with Aimpoint H-1 was roughly the size of the black on a B-8 Target at 25 yards, nothing to write home about.

At home, the dot wobbled all over the same area - what you see is what you get.

After making the changes described up above, my group size was cut in half, despite me being way too hot and too tired, and struggling to find a magazine that would feed the gun reliably.  I need to either fix that, or have someone fix it, but when I put one of the old High Standard OEM Magazines (that came from Roddy Toyota), it fired shot after shot after shot into this same small area, between 1/3 and 1/2 the size of the black.


Just for the heck of it, I took out my very first High Standard, which started out as a #103.  The gun weighs very little, and the sight, despite two batteries, feels like it's made of plastic compared to my other High Standards.  Having sat for two or three years, it shot a group similar in size to what I got with my X-Series.

My own conclusion from all this is not that anything I did allowed me to shoot "better", but it removed something detrimental that my hands were doing to the gun, that caused the dot (and gun) to move around much more.  Anyone who understands "resonance" will know what I'm trying to say.  Any improvements will be instantly visible in your sight.  (...and this probably shows I was fooling myself, when I shot better with iron sights than my then favorite sight, the Aimpoint.) 

This may or may not help me describe I'm trying to say:
https://digitalcommons.odu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1014&context=hms_etds

More likely, I can contact the author and maybe he can help me explain this better.

I have contacted the author of that article, and he wrote back that what I have been trying to say is exactly what he is working on.  He wanted all the exact weights on the before/after for the HS on which I removed the barrel weight, and replaced the Aimpoint Micro with a 1" Ultradot, much longer, but essentially the same weight.  I sent him the length of each sight also.

He knows how to measure frequencies, etc., which I don't, nor do I have access any more to the equipment that does that.

Bottom line, if you think you are capable of holding the gun much more still than what your red dot indicates, make some changes to the gun and try again.  For me, removing the barrel weight definitely changed the natural frequency of the gun, and changing to a longer sight did the same thing.  Before, the "blur" was equal in size to the black.  After, the blur was mostly gone.  

None of this helps with MY ability to hold the gun steady and aimed correctly, but if you're lucky enough to get the same results I did, you'll be quite pleased - but you might be changing things in the wrong direction, in which case it would make things worse.

Hopefully I'll get a reply from this professor, with a technical explanation I can post here.  In the meantime, try it and post what happened.  

Think of it like that out of balance tire shaking the car - by going a little faster, or slower, the vibration goes away.  Resonance.

Jim Clark Sr answered your question for me in a much different manner than others have suggested. 

This is encouraging to me as I believe there are multiple routes to success with your concern. 

“Watch your wobble” was his advice. Rather than study it, or labor to suppress it, Clark Sr taught me to recognize dot travel as normal. 

Like holding sand, the harder you try the more slips away. Relax and accept the natural motion. So wobble gets reduced in the reaction you have to it rather than forcing a more steady hold. 

A second point is stance. Be certain you are turned correctly toward the bullseye. If your muscles are unconsciously correcting bad stance, wobble increases. Close your eyes and see if you are still on the bull. If not, adjust that back foot and repeat. 

You’re on the path. Thinking about it, seeking wisdom and applying new techniques until improvement follows. Stay the course

FWIW…I glanced thru all 126 pages, and failed to find information or references as to how types of grips, and grip pressure are related to hold. Also, unless I missed it, I would have expected to see a comparative analysis utilizing highly trained pro athletes in this discipline (like Zins, Shue, Henderson, Sanderson et al). There are so many variables to this that one is required to find what works for themselves and achieving a comprehensive standard of repeatability of the fundamentals required to execute the “perfect shot” on a consistent basis.  Another factor is the psychological effect competition has on the individual, as well as physical factors: metabolism, weight, diet, muscular attributes etc.  I firmly believe all these details contribute in a cumulative manner and affect the shooter, especially over an extended period of time like a full match. Then there is the tendency to “overthink” the process. 

This is exactly why we developed the Bullseye Clinic and Bootcamp program.
www.thebullseyeclinic.com