Another S&W Model 41 problem

My 2 1/2 year old Performance center Model 41 has been problematic (putting it mildly) since day 1.  I have experienced most of the problems others have but have been able to work thru of them.  The recent problem is a failure to eject.  The spent case just stays in the chamber.  The problem does not happen when the pistol is clean but gets progressively worse with rounds fired.  It used to happen rarely and only when the pistol was very dirty (300 rounds).  Yesterday, it started at about round 130 and happened 5 more times by round 170.  Upon disassembly I found a couple of things that do not appear to be correct. 
1. When I work the extractor with my finger I noticed that the bolt moves in its slot.  I measured .005" movement with a feeler gauge.  This cant be right.   I have taken this assembly apart a few times to clean and put in a Volquartsen extractor and I know it was not always loose.   
2.  I noticed that the bolt extends about .030" beyond the breech face.  This has caused a dent in the chamber face where the bold hits.  I am concerned that the dent in the chamber face has caused metal to extrude toward the chamber opening causing a tight chamber. 

 I am not sure what to do about this.  Is it normal for a 22 to have wear like this after 3100 rounds fired?  Does anyone think S&W can fix this properly?

Doug W.

How tight is the chamber?  Have you tried the plop test?  A round goes into the chamber all the way freely and also falls out easily.

285wannab wrote:How tight is the chamber?  Have you tried the plop test?  A round goes into the chamber all the way freely and also falls out easily.

I tested it after the last series of failure to ejects.  At 180 rounds fired rounds stopped before bottoming out.  Leaving about .180" of case exposed.  I tried this with several rounds with the same results.  It took a hard push to get the round to seat.  Then I cleaned the chamber and the same rounds passed the plunk test.
Doug W.

It's my opinion that the tolerances are stacked against you.
You may have to invest in a chamber iron to get out of this particular pickle.

STEVE SAMELAK wrote:It's my opinion that the tolerances are stacked against you.
You may have to invest in a chamber iron to get out of this particular pickle.

Steve,
I used a chamber iron (lightly) about 600 rounds ago.  It stopped the failure to extract problem for awhile.  Now its back and worse than ever.  I am speculating that the extractor moving away from the case is contributing to the issue.  By the way, when I slip a round under the extractor and shake the slide the extractor holds the round in place.   
Doug

FWIW I had VERY similar issues with my M41s. I cleaned, bronze brushed, Hoppes, shooters choice. L brushed, fire brushed with mixed results. I lastly did a Kroil soak overnite, brushed, patched both my M41 barrels ..a Clark and a OEM SW barrel. Plunk tested, CCI, Eley Club, Norma-tac, Blazer and Agulia SE. The results were mixed and not to my liking. I resorted to putting a drop of oil in the bullet head and the issue went away. For the next 3 months continued to do the oiling, using Agulia exclusively for matches. Currently I no longer oil for slow fire with a RARE FTExtract during SF. I continue to oil for TR/RF until I get enough "faith" during practices to not oil during practice TF/RF. Just a small drop on the lead is all you need. Make it a part of you match routine and it will become second nature. Unless the RO is a go go go type to bring shooters to the line. I have seen others oil up at the beginning of the stage all the loaded mages.

Might not be the way you want to proceed...but it worked for me.

Idk, and this is a long shot.  Maybe you have a carbon ring in your chamber.  And you cleaned part of it off with your last cleaning but now after shooting again it built up just enough to cause you problems again.

I would scrub it really good and try the plop test if they go in you know why.  If not I would try the iron again.  If they plop in then you will know what to work on.

What ammo are you using? If it's CCI SV try moving to SK Match and see if the problem is solved. I clean my 41 and it passes the plop test. Shot 50 rounds of CCI SV and the spent case has to be pried out. Shoot 500 rounds of SK and it passes the plop test before cleaning. It's the same drill with my Ruger IV (waiting for a Volquartsen upper). CCI SV in my opinion has changed in the past few months. It's gotten dirtier for one. I haven't done and measurements but either the casing is thinner or the load is hotter. BUT my Volquartsen BM handles it just fine. Go figure?

My model 41 behaves similar to yours, I clean the chamber with a brush, and it will pass the plop test.  After a match (90 shots) it won't.  I know oiling the top round is controversial, but I do it on every other magazine when shooting sustained fire, and have very few problems.  I hold the loaded magazine upside down when applying a very small drop of oil and wipe off the excess with my finger.

My Mark III 22/45 eats everything I throw in it, I rarely clean the barrel, and I never have tried the "plop" test on it.

285wannab wrote:Idk, and this is a long shot.  Maybe you have a carbon ring in your chamber.  And you cleaned part of it off with your last cleaning but now after shooting again it built up just enough to cause you problems again.

285wananab,
The chamber looks Ok when using a light and the naked eye.  I have an inexpensive bore scope that works pretty well.  I will get it out and inspect the chamber carefully.  Thanks for the suggestion.
Doug W.

xman wrote:FWIW I had VERY similar issues with my M41s. I cleaned, bronze brushed, Hoppes, shooters choice. L brushed, fire brushed with mixed results. I lastly did a Kroil soak overnite, brushed, patched both my M41 barrels ..a Clark and a OEM SW barrel. Plunk tested, CCI, Eley Club, Norma-tac, Blazer and Agulia SE. The results were mixed and not to my liking. I resorted to putting a drop of oil in the bullet head and the issue went away. For the next 3 months continued to do the oiling, using Agulia exclusively for matches. Currently I no longer oil for slow fire with a RARE FTExtract during SF. I continue to oil for TR/RF until I get enough "faith" during practices to not oil during practice TF/RF. Just a small drop on the lead is all you need. Make it a part of you match routine and it will become second nature. Unless the RO is a go go go type to bring shooters to the line. I have seen others oil up at the beginning of the stage all the loaded mages.

Might not be the way you want to proceed...but it worked for me.

xman,
Thanks for your reply.  Its interesting that so many people have trouble with their model 41's.  I assume yours is a newer one too.  Do you oil all of the rounds in a magazine or just the top one?  Also, when you have a failure to extract do the spent cases stay in the chamber or are they partially removed?
Doug W.

msmith44 wrote:What ammo are you using? If it's CCI SV try moving to SK Match and see if the problem is solved. I clean my 41 and it passes the plop test. Shot 50 rounds of CCI SV and the spent case has to be pried out. Shoot 500 rounds of SK and it passes the plop test before cleaning. It's the same drill with my Ruger IV (waiting for a Volquartsen upper). CCI SV in my opinion has changed in the past few months. It's gotten dirtier for one. I haven't done and measurements but either the casing is thinner or the load is hotter. BUT my Volquartsen BM handles it just fine. Go figure?

msmith44,
I use CCI SV exclusively.  I have noticed differences from lot to lot.  I have one lot that I use for practice only because one out of 20 rounds is a dud.  I am interested in trying SK Match.  I went to their website and they make 10 different types of 22lr ammo.  Which one do you use?
Doug W.

rburk wrote:My model 41 behaves similar to yours, I clean the chamber with a brush, and it will pass the plop test.  After a match (90 shots) it won't.  I know oiling the top round is controversial, but I do it on every other magazine when shooting sustained fire, and have very few problems.  I hold the loaded magazine upside down when applying a very small drop of oil and wipe off the excess with my finger.

My Mark III 22/45 eats everything I throw in it, I rarely clean the barrel, and I never have tried the "plop" test on it.

rburk,
My Mark III 22/45 was a "jam o matic" at first.  After I removed the chambered round indicator it functioned perfectly with all of the ammo I tried.  If I end up sending my Model 41 back to S&W for repairs I will go back to the Mark III.
Doug W.

djw1cav wrote:

Thanks for your reply.  Its interesting that so many people have trouble with their model 41's.  I assume yours is a newer one too.  Do you oil all of the rounds in a magazine or just the top one?  Also, when you have a failure to extract do the spent cases stay in the chamber or are they partially removed?


Doug W

The barrels are not newer late 80s and late 90s. I only oil the top round as it sits in the mag for RF/TF. I get a mix of no extraction to slight extraction. Mostly no extraction if not oiled. In SF if I get a FTExtract I have time to push out the case.

djw1cav wrote:

msmith44 wrote:What ammo are you using? If it's CCI SV try moving to SK Match and see if the problem is solved. I clean my 41 and it passes the plop test. Shot 50 rounds of CCI SV and the spent case has to be pried out. Shoot 500 rounds of SK and it passes the plop test before cleaning. It's the same drill with my Ruger IV (waiting for a Volquartsen upper). CCI SV in my opinion has changed in the past few months. It's gotten dirtier for one. I haven't done and measurements but either the casing is thinner or the load is hotter. BUT my Volquartsen BM handles it just fine. Go figure?

msmith44,
I use CCI SV exclusively.  I have noticed differences from lot to lot.  I have one lot that I use for practice only because one out of 20 rounds is a dud.  I am interested in trying SK Match.  I went to their website and they make 10 different types of 22lr ammo.  Which one do you use?
Doug W.

SK Match... try AmmoSeek to find who has it in stock. $8.99-9.99 a box compared to $4.99 for CCI SV.

The Performance Center model seems to have more forum reported issues. My 2021 vintage 7” model has run fine. Still have a 0.25 caliber brush on the pickup list for cleaning. Usually go through 100 - 150 rounds every trip to the range. Ammo is a mix of old high velocity and new CCI SV. Installed a recoil buffer..

I'm getting more confident that the fix is a Nelson conversion. Solves the reliability issue, and the grip to trigger 'problem'.

There's a good chance my FWB will turn into a novelty item as well.

xman wrote:

djw1cav wrote:

Thanks for your reply.  Its interesting that so many people have trouble with their model 41's.  I assume yours is a newer one too.  Do you oil all of the rounds in a magazine or just the top one?  Also, when you have a failure to extract do the spent cases stay in the chamber or are they partially removed?


Doug W

The barrels are not newer late 80s and late 90s. I only oil the top round as it sits in the mag for RF/TF. I get a mix of no extraction to slight extraction. Mostly no extraction if not oiled. In SF if I get a FTExtract I have time to push out the case.

I think my Model 41 is around 20 years old. Only oil the top round in the mag, it doesn't take a lot of oil, and I do it every other 5 shot string in RF/TF.

One should not need to put a drop of oil on the top of the first round in each mag on a 41, a lot of people do it and it works but if everything is right with the pistol it should  not be necessary.  My 41 is a happy camper and rarely so much as hiccups, the only time I have a problem is after I field strip it and clean it, when I do that sometimes the first round fired stove pipes.  If your 41 is a problem child I would suggest sending it to somebody who knows what they are doing like KC.  Good luck with yours, it is not fun to have a fussy pistol.

285wannab wrote:Idk, and this is a long shot.  Maybe you have a carbon ring in your chamber.  And you cleaned part of it off with your last cleaning but now after shooting again it built up just enough to cause you problems again.

285wannab
I checked the chamber with a bore scope and there was a small carbon ring in the chamber even though the chamber passed the plunk test.  10 minutes of cleaning and the ring is gone.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Doug