Are EIC matches worth it ......

The goal of EIC shoots is being awarded "Leg " points.

Are EIC shoots worth it for Marksman, Sharpshooters and the majority of Experts? Given the cut off on scores 250 for service and 260 for .22. The cost for travel/gas maybe hotel also for an EIC match. The amount of time for non match practice needed, EIC match fees, the cost of the practice and match ammo. 

The odds of a Marksman, Sharpshooter and many Experts getting a Leg, though dependent on scores and the total of NON-distinguished shooters, can be remote.

As of this Saturday I will have shot in 4 EIC .22 events this year. Yes 2 of the 4 were in conjunction with 2700s, and multi-day shoots. The other 2 were "neighborhood" shoots, meaning less than 2 hours away and free standing EIC shoots.

The majority of my practice is with a DOT as nearly all my matches are 1800s or 2700s. When I know I have an EIC shoot, I adjust my practice to 60% open sights an 40% dot sights, depending if a 2700 is included. If it is a stand alone EIC I go 100% open sights for at least 2-3 weeks (4 to 6 sessions) if possible.

My EIC shooting are with the same pistol (M41). All I do is swap out the barrels between NRA and CMP/EIC so I have the same trigger, grip etc. I use the TT app to call the TF and RF for all my practices. 

My goal for this Saturdays EIC is 200. If I can put all the elements together it is doable. But is it worth it? I have been at BE for about 5 years, seriously for the last 2.5 years. At 66 years old, am past my physical prime after many decades of various rifle disciplines. Pistol has been the toughest on advancing. My NRA BE is improving with personal bests nearly every outing. Splitting practice between NRA and CMP/EIC seems like it would hurt my NRA and not really improve my EIC. 

So I say again, is EIC worth it.

I was taken by your article and wanted to share some of my thoughts. We have a lot in common. We both shoot M41's, hail from Texas, have previously shot other competition events and have been classified as marksman for several years. For me, it is truly humbling to go from a HP Master in the 1980's, accustom to winning matches to not-so-much in bullseye. That's OK with me. I enjoy the sport and the fellowship with everyone (well, almost everyone) wherever I shoot, because "it's important to me".
Sorry you feel you may be past your prime at 66; for me with no cartilage in my left shoulder and shooting cross-eyed, I believe I am just approaching my prime at 74. I am usually the last one back to the line from scoring at 50 yards, but that's OK as they usually wait for me. I have been known to say to the master shooters sitting on their southern exposure as I return from scoring, that they fail to utilize the entire target, concentrating only on the center portion.
Although I have not competed in EIC matches, I believe the "E" stands for Excellence, which is one of my goals, but know I am not their yet. If earning that patch was my goal, I believe I would concentrate solely on shooting irons until the goal is achieved, in both practice and in matches. As a retiree, I have the time and resources for bullseye shooting and gardening. If I had better equilibrium, I would do a little fishing too! All the best, Joe

OK, I'm writing this in general, not specifically for the OP but to put forth my opinion.  Your reasons for shooting EIC or not shooting them are your own and that's OK.  Again, this is not specifically for those of us over the hill, and I'm in that boat as well.  I just want to make sure that if someone is reading and going just by their scores or classification, they can get another perspective. (But then again, you never know how much you can do until after you do it so never give up.) And here goes. 

As you said, the purpose of EIC / Distinguished matches is to be able to compete against other shooters in order to obtain the necessary points to become Distinguished.  That usually takes scores in the 285 range or better. (I've shot in matches where 287 didn't even get you a point.) Remember you are shooting against all the other shooters (and you must have at least 10 shooters to get even get a 6 point leg).   And you need to amass 30 points to get your Distinguished badge (Pistol / .22 / Revolver) depending on the match / organization. 

Its not the "cut off" score that means anything for most matches.  That's just to keep someone from putting on a "scab" match and trying to get some points for a distinguished badge with a super low score.

If you get distinguished, it means that you actually came in at least 1st or second or so for most local / state matches and with at really good score at the nationals. 

So, is it worth it for Marksman / Sharpshooter / Expert / etc?  

Well (in my opinion), do you want learn how to compete under pressure with a limited number of opportunities each year? 

Do you want to get better shooting overall by increasing your ability with open sights and dealing with match "nerves".  

Do you want to gain experience and test yourself against all others for that day and prove to yourself you can shoot well while vying for a limited number of points at each match, meaning you have to be at the top of heap that day?  

Well, do ya?

Shooting well does not mean just being able to make a group on a target.  The winner is not usually just the best shooter, but the best competitor.  EIC matches can make one a better competitor. 

So it doesn't matter what your classification is, what matters is what you want to achieve and you have to start somewhere.  (That should be your real goal. If you are shooting for points, you'll probably not make it; if you are shooting to learn how to get better, then you will probably get further than you imagined.)

Even if you never get a point, if it can make you a better competitor and / or a better shooter by learning how to deal with the above issues, then why not shoot EIC matches?  (And working with open sights will be especially helpful to find those fundamental issues that need working on.) 

A man that never takes one step down the road never gets anywhere.

CR

Cecil nails it, as usual.

By rephrasing the topic to, “Is showing up for a Bullseye match worth it if I can’t shoot a Master score?”, then I think the answer would be a bit more self evident.

Trying to pare your question down to the barest minimum, I almost feel like you are asking if shooting irons is going to hurt your “dot” shooting scores.

If you think it will hurt your score, it will.  If you think it helps, it will.  Either way you are right!

+1 on both Cecil's and Will's post above. I'm in your age bracket...but have never thought I was past my prime (at least as far as BE goes), and can still post a decent score most of the time. Set your mind to it and you can achieve it!

jjbhonn wrote:  I am usually the last one back to the line from scoring at 50 yards, but that's OK as they usually wait for me.


So when they don't wait, they just shoot around you? 
Phil

Note that by attending and participating, you may make the difference in someone else getting a leg, plus you're supporting the matches, so that we all can continue to enjoy them.

I was 61 when I legged with the rifle...we're not too old for this &*##!!
I seem to remember one of the guys in the NC zoom presentation saying he was 68 when he made master.

I personally think EIC matches are worth it. The challenge is good and you can (and help others) achieve progress towards distinguished. I like them as they offer a slightly different change than the 2700 format.

That said, if you do not enjoy them, that is ok.

I shoot them when I can. If I don't plan to shoot one but need shooters I will borrow a gun and ammo to compete and insure a leg for the match. Whether rifle, pistol or 22, the mental game is important for success in EICs. I don't know of anyway to master a thing without doing it.

Am the OP for this topic. I am long past getting the yips of match pressure after maybe 1000 match competitions over 45 years so match pressure is a non starter. The sighting, hold, follow thru, etc. techniques of dot VS. open sights are so different (IMHO) that I have some discipline problems on not maintaining/concentrating dot technique for dot shooting and irons sight for iron sight shooting. Things like focus on target with a dot VS. focusing on post for irons. I slip up and reverse the techniques of focus that lands me in trouble 80% of the time. I find that in TF/RF I have better focus that I dont have time to confuse up the appropriate sighting methodology. Now SF is another matter entirely. I have notes on masking tape on my box lid so that I have a visual reference/reminder of where to focus giving the type of shooting. However so much is going on in SF that the mental focus shifts around especially with open sights.

Well the EIC is tomorrow afternoon, will keep you all updated.

+1 on participating even if, like me, you're not likely to get points. My last points were several years ago at then age 76. But, my continued participation has sometimes added that one extra competitor which bumped legs available to be awarded from zero to one or two. And, there's always a chance I'll have that rare great day!

in the CMP rules 9.2.6 shows that you only need 6 people to get a 6 pt leg. 

As to the question if you should show then YES you should.  The biggest challenge we have in the NW is getting enough people to show up so a HARD leg can be awarded.  This takes 16 non-distinguished shooters on the line.  I had 24 pts for more than 2 yrs waiting for an opportunity.  Going to Perry was not an option.

I know the people who are winning the points at EIC matches appreciate the other people who show up and shoot but may not be ready to shoot the scores to win the match.  As you get better and can shoot the scores to win the match you hope there are others just starting out.

The score the win point depends on where you are and what matched you are.  in the NW wining scores (non-distinguished) are anywhere from 250 to in the 260's of the time.

I've had the thought that leg matches are a great way to give a new shooter a taste of bullseye, though I have not been amazingly successful getting people there. 30 shots isn't tiring, only 10 shots at the difficult long line. 

I've traveled 2+ hours twice for just leg matches, and I got points both times. That made it worth it for me. I'm about 4 hours south of the Fleet matches, but I have struggled to justify that drive for maybe 100 shots. I have my hard legs for both 22 and SP, so I'm not remotely feeling any desperation to seek out matches. I'm also lucky to have 3 leg matches a year I can shoot sleeping in my own bed.

Everyone has their line in the sand. You sound like driving 2 hours for 30-60 shots isn't going to make the cut, and that's fine. I too am more motivated to drive for a 2700 + leg matches. If I could go someplace and shoot 2700 both Sat and Sun, I'd be all over that! Shoot irons the first day, maybe with revolver for CF (or 22 too!), shoot dots the second day!

2 hours isn’t much.  Out west, Leg matches are relatively infrequent so when you get the “bug” you’ll travel for several hours.  When I shot rifle, there were guys who travelled 10+ hours and went home empty handed.  Been to matches where one or two “Legs” were given so you literally had to “win” the match.  But eventually you get there.  EIC matches are, to some extent, a “long term participation award.  Show up long enough, improve as you go and eventually you get the medal. 

So are they “worth it”. Like anything else you get out of it what you put in to it.  You get some friendships, suffer agonizing defeats and occasional dashes of brilliance.  And like others have said, participate when you can as your score could add a leg to somebody or even put them through.  Somebody else will help you someday.

I happen to be blessed pistol wise to have a club that runs 2 EICs a year 1.5 hours away. 
2nd club with 36 points with turning targets is in development 45 min away. Should be monthly when finished..
3rd club with 10 turning targets 1.5 hours away. Monthly shoots
4th club with 36 turning positions 2 hours away. Again monthly shoots
5th club that runs a regional is 4 hours distance. 2/3 day affair with EICs
6th club in an adjoining state is 4 hours away. Another 2 day affair State Championship with EICs.

So I have lot of lead going down range every month/year. Its the allotment of Dot VS. EIC practice that is a quandary. It is sort of a robbing Peter to pay Paul situation.

Yes an abundance of riches, that is east Texas.

For your situation, shooting every EIC match makes perfect sense IMHO.

CR10X wrote:As you said, the purpose of EIC / Distinguished matches is to be able to compete against other shooters in order to obtain the necessary points to become Distinguished.  That usually takes scores in the 285 range or better. (I've shot in matches where 287 didn't even get you a point.) Remember you are shooting against all the other shooters (and you must have at least 10 shooters to get even get a 6 point leg).   And you need to amass 30 points to get your Distinguished badge (Pistol / .22 / Revolver) depending on the match / organization. 

That seems to be overstating the competition by quite a bit.

This year's NTI at Camp Perry had 172 non-distinguished competitors, 17 legs. The first leg went to a 275-2, the 17th leg went to a 251-5. Silver cutoff was 256 and gold cutoff was 262.

https://ct.thecmp.org/app/v1/index.php?do=match&task=edit&match=21010&tab=results

The NTI winner and national champion shot a 287-10.

As I recall it was kind of windy out, but still. Going distinguished with a service pistol doesn't require 95%+ scores.



Anyway, to the OP. It's the journey, not the destination. Don't miss out on the journey because the destination seems so far away.

Ha Newbie here and shooting iron sights. If you are able to shoot iron sights and it sounds like you are, and the issue is that you find it hard to switch back and forth, why not just switch and shoot all matches iron sights? Obviously there’s a reason you shoot a dot after so many years and matches, so it’s not a rhetorical question. Could you be as good with irons (or better)? Plus no worries about dots failing, buying batteries, cost. You could sell your dot and buy some reloading components too.

Btw, I’m in central Texas. Where are all these EIC matches? I know the info is out there somewhere. Dallas gun club? Terrell?

Thanks!

i am 3 years into bullseye, love to shoot and started 22 eic service eic and nra revolver,when i shoot these matches i only shoot against non-distinguished shooters so much better odds of placing, i got a bronze pin wow that was great,practiced more got a silver pin, next match earned points,went to perry got points and cmp sent me a metal so my advice is to enjoy the challenge for distinguished get some pins earn some points and enjoy the ride . tyro

The first 4 are running 3-4.5 hour drive… but a fellow could eat a lot of good bbq getting to and from those places…. Thanks xman!

Xman you made me want to move to east texas. Im already looking at the map for bases around…

As far as practicing and competing with iron sights, it's not going to hurt your scores with the dot. If anything, it will help.

Well back to the drawing board for me and EIC shooting after todays dumpster fire on a train wreck. At least I competed and was a filler for the number of shooters. Great turnout for both .22 and SP. Host club ran HP, SR, Garand and Vintage events and a bunch of the rifle folks when done came over to shoot EIC pistol. Next practice for me is Monday with a focus on open sights .22. Am going to shun using a rest for "zero" and shoot a bunch of 25y TF/RF and see where the M41 is shooting natural POA.