Advice on 45 Load Optimization

First topic message reminder :

Hi All,

I am going to try to find the most accurate bullet for my 45 bullseye pistol. Can you guys give me advice on how to logically approach this?  Are thier factors which play the most important roles in an accurate load for a given pistol....like the bullet. And then factors which have little, but some impact, i.e. crimp?

This is my thinking

Start with 4.0 gr bullseye - Load 185 swcjhp, 200 gr swc, 185 jhp from Roze  - Any other bullets that can be suggested?
Find best bullet
Change the powder and try 231, N310, bullseye, tightgroup
Find best powder
Once best powder is found play with the charge strength - try a few different gr loads
Find the best load
Next play with OAL and crimp

Any advice?

Best,

Joe

That's just down right hurtful to talk about having so many primers that you can conduct such an experiment in the middle of this supply chain disaster, when most of us would give a kidney to find enough to just get through some kind of competitive season come March.  Very mean of you.

Are you shooting 38 for cf as you mentioned 38 in your initial post?  If yes, is your 45 significantly lower than the cf?

If you are on the edge of Master, you should be pretty good at calling shots by now! How do the shots look in comparison to how they print with your current ammo?

How do the groups look from a rest?

It shouldn't be too big of a mystery to determine if your ammo is holding you back at this point.

lanjo wrote:I am right on the edge of hitting master.  Shooting north of 2500.  So I am now trying to catch as many points from as many areas as I can.  I am thinking that if I spend some time optimizing a 45 and a 38 load over the winter, like I did for the 22, I might pick up 10 or 20 points.  That is were I am at... trying to find 10 to 20 points here and there so I can hit 2565 next year.

I can see the value. If going through this exercise clears your mind, then it creates “mental real estate” to put ammo out of your thought process.

Trigger time is much more important. 
Try this approach - Load the best ammo you can.  At the range, test off bags or some other way for the potential for this days ammo-gun combo.  Then train/practice with that potential in mind.  Do this regularly.  Do it when you try another ammo.  Learn about your ammo at the same time you learn your trigger. Keep trigger as the priority. 

In other words if a 8 ring shooter has 10 ring ammo, keep shooting.

Jack H wrote:Trigger time is much more important. 
Try this approach - Load the best ammo you can.  At the range, test off bags or some other way for the potential for this days ammo-gun combo.  Then train/practice with that potential in mind.  Do this regularly.  Do it when you try another ammo.  Learn about your ammo at the same time you learn your trigger. Keep trigger as the priority. 

In other words if a 8 ring shooter has 10 ring ammo, keep shooting.

If this is the wrong place to ask, I apologize but this raises an question for me. 

If our OP is 10-20 points from 2565, is he an “8 ring” shooter?  I don’t know how to estimate  what score results from being capable of holding the 8 ring. And whether that’s at the long line or 25 yard. Some of the shots likely are 8’s and 10’s. I’ve searched and can’t find an answer. 

Thanks!

Search this site for "Accuracy+calculations"  - much discussion related to  this topic.

My comment has all to do with group size.  No reference to score is intended.
Although I too am interested if someone has the math to estimate relative score to group size assuming sights are zeroed.

RodJ wrote:

lanjo wrote:I am right on the edge of hitting master.  Shooting north of 2500.  So I am now trying to catch as many points from as many areas as I can.  I am thinking that if I spend some time optimizing a 45 and a 38 load over the winter, like I did for the 22, I might pick up 10 or 20 points.  That is were I am at... trying to find 10 to 20 points here and there so I can hit 2565 next year.

I can see the value. If going through this exercise clears your mind, then it creates “mental real estate” to put ammo out of your thought process.

I only skimmed this thread, yet I agree. If someone is on the edge of breaking into the Master class, it's a good time to start investigating and optimizing his/her equipment.

90% of the time I'm of the "where did you get stuck in the Marine Corps manual?" mindset. This might be that other 10%.

sharkdoctor wrote:Search this site for "Accuracy+calculations"  - much discussion related to  this topic.

Thanks… I think… this thread popped up and, as I read it, the squirrel cage bearings in my head started smoking and then I think my brain exploded!!!   Talk about dense!

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t6831-accuracy-calculations-points-lost-to-inaccuracy?highlight=Accuracy+%2Bcalculations

Thanks everyone for the discussion.

I shoot ~850 in the 22 and the 38 and then 820-30 in the 45.  The 45 is my weakest gun.  I have improved in it over the last few years, but it does need more work.  I like to shoot the 38.  Even though everyone says to ditch it.  It makes the sport more fun for me!!!!  If I have to grind through this road to master it will take me longer.  I enjoy when the CF match comes up - just because I can work with the M52.  A work of art in pistol accuracy in my opinion.  It is like holding a stradivarius in my opinion.

I do see off shots happen from time to time.  I will be chucking along in SF when all of a sudden I will get a 6.  I dont see any difference in the hold and the break than if I get a 10 or 9.  So that is what is making me think investigating the ammo and the gun is worth the effort.  I don't think it is a flinch as years of dry fire practice has refined my trigger pull.  From time to time I have a fail to chamber and the hammer falls, I don't see the gun move at all.  I don't think I flinch - most of the time.  The gun was ransom rested by Clark when they installed the barrel several years ago.  They showed a 1.5"goup with JHP, 2.5" with LSWC.  That was 5 shot group.  I don't know how many 5 shot groups they needed to get that.  So I think it is worth testing the gun and optimizing the loads. This time go for 10 or 20 shot groups to see how often fliers are seen.  I do have access to a Ransom and I have a friend who knows how to use it and our club has a proper mount for it to test at 50 yards.

I am thinking that I can get the necessary points by learning to....

Put the gun down in SF when the wobble opens.  This is a discipline I have not mastered. I try to finish when things are getting sloppy and that is costing me. I might get 10-20 points on this...
Improve in TF and RF with the 45. 10-20 points.
Figure out where the fliers are coming from.  I see them in CF and 45 more than 22. - 10-20 points
Try to control meltdowns - As an example of this I shot recently on Nov 6th.  It was cold - my 22 point of impact was off and my SF shots were grouping to the left of the bull.  What should have been 10-9s were 9-8s. I think it was because the gun was cold causing the gun to contract and putting off the red dot.  Another one is a double alibi. I lost 40 pts in a match because of that.
Get to the point that I can regularly clean 22 and CF TF and RF targets.  I shoot usually 96-98.  I need to be at 99-100. - ~20 points each gun

If all the stars are in alignment I can get close over a 2700.  The problem is that we need 3420/3600 to make Master.  That is 4X 900's in a row.  It is impossible for the stars to be in alignment for that long.  That will require I do my homework.

Best,

Joe

A couple of points:  

You alluded to an occasional failure to chamber.  This indicates that there may be an issue with your reloads that might warrant investigation.   The ammunition you shoot has to function 100% (Okay, 99.99%). Sounds to me you might not be there.  Use a chamber checker for EVERY round you plan to use in a match.  It should fall out of the chamber checker without being pushed or touched.  The bullet has to be seated to not touch the rifling.  To that end, a SWC “head to bullet shoulder” length is critical. Most fine that .915 inches will work.  Crimp is mandatory.   

The other thing is to perhaps obtain a quantity of known ammunition and use it as a baseline.  ASYM, Atlantic Arms and Loader Monkey all make a clone of the “Marine Load” (185 JHP, 4.5 gr N310) which is known to shoot well in multiple guns.  So get 250-500 rounds of one or more these and use that as your baseline target.  Again 100%% function is required and 2.0-2.5 inch accuracy at 50.  And that should be 2 groups out of 3.  If your gun  doesn’t shoot that well, it may need attention.  If it passes that test, it will give you an acceptance target for your reloads.
Nov 16, 2021:
In your last post, you mentioned that occasionally at 50 you’ll get an unexplained “6” .  This along with these unexplained FTF, could mean that your gun and ammo combination is failing to fully lockup in the same position.  Ammo can cause this if there is an interference caused by ammunition being poorly made.  The gun may fire, but the barrel isn’t in the same place as it was for the last shot. I had that happen once myself.  Fixing the ammo fixed the problem.

Look at some of you best scores from 10 shot groups.  This is what your gun/ammo are currently able to do.  Do those scores get you to Master?

If so then I would spend more time dry firing and holding exercises to improve your hold and trigger control.  This will get you more than the 20 points you need.

If you have the time it does not hurt to test more loads.  Many of the top shooters in this game have always said to keep testing.

If most people here would just use the known good loads from HM's early in their shooting career then they could spend more time improving their shot process, trigger control and hold.

Then when you get close to HM then dial the load in get a better pistol if need and can afford it.

There are more points to be chased in how you shoot a shot than with what you are shooting with.

RodJ wrote:

Jack H wrote:Trigger time is much more important. 
Try this approach - Load the best ammo you can.  At the range, test off bags or some other way for the potential for this days ammo-gun combo.  Then train/practice with that potential in mind.  Do this regularly.  Do it when you try another ammo.  Learn about your ammo at the same time you learn your trigger. Keep trigger as the priority. 

In other words if a 8 ring shooter has 10 ring ammo, keep shooting.

If this is the wrong place to ask, I apologize but this raises an question for me. 

If our OP is 10-20 points from 2565, is he an “8 ring” shooter?  I don’t know how to estimate  what score results from being capable of holding the 8 ring. And whether that’s at the long line or 25 yard. Some of the shots likely are 8’s and 10’s. I’ve searched and can’t find an answer. 

Thanks!

  I'll say this about that topic, Last weekend I shot 258 shots in the black.  (8+ at 50, 9+ at 25)   My X count was low at 73, but my score was 2564.   So someone holding the black will easily be in the Master level.

Another comment I'll add.   I was shooting a GSP for a couple of years and my 22 scores were easily 850-860's.  My 45 scores were 810-820s and sometimes worse.   I switched to an Advantage Arms conversion (on 45 frame) and immediately my 22 scores dropped to 840-850, but shortly after, my 45 scores started coming up.  Now there is no difference.  Last match  855,851,858.  I say shoot the 45 for 22, CF and 45 and within time you'll see similar results.  I don't see enough 860+ scores, but I sense it's coming.   I plan on qualifying/getting that Master Card by the end of the year.  

As for accuracy testing, I too fall down that rabbit hole at times.  Spend a couple weeks back and forth trying a few things.  Then pick the best core group and forget about it.   I'd see 2" 10 shot groups, then 3 1/2" a week later.  Frustrating! but still from the hand when the shot goes off and it feels perfect, it's a 10 or an X.   I know it... its there.   (if only its always on MY target, that'd help me make master. Another topic)

Fatigue? My CF scores are generally better by a fair margin over 45 with the same gun. Maybe shoot a few matches with the 45 only.

You're also switching grip shape, weight and balance, and pivot to linear trigger.

james r chapman wrote:

Any advice?

Dry fire more.

The BEST reply to any post on this website. Every once in a while somebody else gets IT.

Hi All,

These are the bullets I have in house for this experiment.  Can some of you experienced reloaders help me figure out an equivalent charge of Bullseye for these bullets.  So that I will be comparing apples to apples.....

Brazos 180 gr lead SWC Hi-Tek
Missouri 185 gr lead SWC button
Missouri 185 gr lead SWC button Hi-Tek
Zero 185 gr lead SWC
Zero 185 gr lead hollow point SWC
Zero 200 gr lead SWC
Nosler 185 gr JHP
Remington 185 jacketed wad cutter

If I were going to start with 4.0 gr of Bullseye for the 185 gr LSWC what would the equivalent charge be for the other bullet weights and styles?

Best,

Joe

Shoot them all with 4.2.I’ve found it shoots all reasonably well.  However 4.0 will work.

Everyone has to do a load quest. It is part of learning the game. I don’t think I learned a “perfect” .45 load. I learned what it takes to make a high quality, CONSISTENT load. I also learned my arm and eye will make more difference than the bullet. I would say the pistol as well, but I am shooting good pistols, so that is not as much a factor either.

Ransom Rest for accuracy and a Ladradar chronograph for consistency were my tools. Also a box or two of whatever you think is very good factory target ammo to test alongside your loads will be very educational.

It was a really fun project. The most valuable thing I learned was that even the best load does not make me score higher, but a crappy, sloppy one will make you score lower!

The difference between Expert and Master is the little things you observe. For example, good hold WHERE wobble has become minimum coinciding with the trigger letting go. ( not you making it go then).

Wobble moving toWARDS center ( but not centered) at that coincidental point vs wobble moving outward are two different shots. RADIAL GUN MOTION WILL SLING SHOTS RADIALLY..

Obviously, There's lots more but you get the idea. What exactly happened when that 50 yard 10 popped in.
Think about things you never thought of before; do they matter?

TYPOs fixed, comment added.

First things first !
1. Beg borrow or steal some  known good 45 ammo.
2. Find a barrel tester and test your barrel.
3 . If barrel is good test pistol in a ransom rest.
YOU need to know if you have problems BEFORE you try fixing.

Items 2&3 may be hard for many to procure but you're right about #1, get some good commercial ammo. Where I live, that isn't easy either but I do have some for that purpose.
Happy thanksgiving

No problem , I have #2 and two friends have #3.

Star loader wrote:No problem , I have #2 and two friends have #3.

Would you be willing to share plans or at least pictures for #2 so that others can make them?