I'm confused about the Camp Perry schedule

I'm confused. Can someone help me out please? I'm looking at the Camp Perry schedule and I want to shoot the 2700, the rimfire EIC, and the service pistol EIC. I don't see what day the service pistol EIC is on. They have "service revolver match," but I don't shoot distinguished revolver, if that is what they mean by that. Or is that a print mistake? Or, is the president's hundred match on Saturday the one you shoot for EIC match points in? And am I required to stay for the award ceremony at the end? What if I need to leave right after the match to go back to my job?

That is a lot of questions, but I'd appreciate any advice you can give me, if you have time.






Wednesday  13 July

9:15AM                                 CMP .22 Pistol 900 Aggregate (Relay 2)           Ranges 1-4

12:30PM-1:30PM              Lunch Break

1:30PM                                 CMP .22 Pistol Team Matches                         Ranges 2-4
2:30PM                            CMP .22 Rimfire Pistol EIC Match                     Ranges 2-4


Thursday  14 July
7:30AM                                  CMP CF Pistol 900 Aggregate(Relay 1)            Ranges 1-4

9:15AM                                  CMP CF Pistol 900 Aggregate(Relay 2)            Ranges 1-4

12:30PM-1:30PM              Lunch Break
1:30PM                                  CMP CF Pistol Team Matches                           Ranges 2-4
2:30PM                              CMP EIC Service Revolver Match                Ranges 2-4

Friday 15 July
7:30AM                                  CMP .45 Pistol 900 Aggregate(Relay 1)           Ranges 1-4

9:15AM                                  CMP .45 Pistol 900 Aggregate(Relay 2)           Ranges 1-4

12:30PM-1:30PM              Lunch Break
1:30PM                             CMP .45 Pistol Team Matches                           Ranges 2-4
 TBA                                       CMP Pistol Championship Awards                       Hough Theater

Saturday 16 July
7:30AM                                     President’s 100 Pistol Match                                 Range 2-4
TBA                                         National Trophy Pistol Match                                Range 2-4

TBA                                         National Trophy Pistol Team Match                       Range 2

The service pistol EIC match is the National Trophy Pistol Match. You don't need to stick around to get your points!

Dave

In the past there was the National Trophy AND a service pistol match. I asked Jim Henderson about this. So far, there is no regular service pistol match on the schedule but Jim said there may be some tweaking. Note: You can shoot a max of 5 service pistol matches per year PLUS the National Trophy match.

Last year was the first year without the NRA, so they are still working out the new schedule.

They used to have a service pistol EIC at the beginning of the week, before the NRA matches. Last year they had one on 45 day. I think it was pretty well attended. I'm not sure why they wouldn't do it again this year, except ending the matches earlier gives them more time to get ready for the awards ceremony.

As mentioned the National Trophy Individual (NTI) match is a special service pistol EIC match. It doesn't count against your 5 match per year limit and all civilian that finish in the top 10%* get 10 point. Military shooters follow the rules of their service. 

* top 10% of non-distinguished shooters

In regards to the two matches with points opportunities, why should Service Pistol have more opportunities for a hard leg than the other badges (22EIC, Service Revolver, Air pistol, ect.)?

chiz1180 wrote:In regards to the two matches with points opportunities, why should Service Pistol have more opportunities for a hard leg than the other badges (22EIC, Service Revolver, Air pistol, ect.)?

The Service Pistol EIC doesn't issue only Hard Legs like the NTI to civilians.  I think we all just want more opportunities.

SmoothBore870 wrote:

chiz1180 wrote:In regards to the two matches with points opportunities, why should Service Pistol have more opportunities for a hard leg than the other badges (22EIC, Service Revolver, Air pistol, ect.)?

The Service Pistol EIC doesn't issue only Hard Legs like the NTI to civilians.  I think we all just want more opportunities.

But why more opportunities for Service Pistol than the others? The NTI already doesn’t count towards your 5 matches under normal circumstances.

chiz1180 wrote:

SmoothBore870 wrote:

chiz1180 wrote:In regards to the two matches with points opportunities, why should Service Pistol have more opportunities for a hard leg than the other badges (22EIC, Service Revolver, Air pistol, ect.)?

The Service Pistol EIC doesn't issue only Hard Legs like the NTI to civilians.  I think we all just want more opportunities.

But why more opportunities for Service Pistol than the others? The NTI already doesn’t count towards your 5 matches under normal circumstances.

Honestly, I'd assume people asked the CMP to change the Service Pistol Warm-Up match to an EIC a few years ago and people liked the idea. Usually those type of things come from competitor meetings I believe. At this point, they, including myself, expected to see it on the schedule. The Service Pistol EIC did count toward your yearly limit I believe.

Very disappointed that they don't have an EIC for service pistol after the .45 portion of the 2700. CMP was founded on service type arms.

Arthur wrote:Very disappointed that they don't have an EIC for service pistol after the .45 portion of the 2700. CMP was founded on service type arms.

Then shoot a M9 for service and a 1911 ball gun for the 2700. I personally would rather see more people shoot EICs at smaller matches rather than once a year at Perry.

SteveT wrote:
They used to have a service pistol EIC at the beginning of the week, before the NRA matches. Last year they had one on 45 day. I think it was pretty well attended. I'm not sure why they wouldn't do it again this year, except ending the matches earlier gives them more time to get ready for the awards ceremony.

As mentioned the National Trophy Individual (NTI) match is a special service pistol EIC match. It doesn't count against your 5 match per year limit and all civilian that finish in the top 10%* get 10 point. Military shooters follow the rules of their service. 

* top 10% of non-distinguished shooters

 Steve,
I shot Perry duuring the 70's, 80's & 90's. I don't recall a "ball match" other than President's, NTI, and the team?  The only change I recall during that time was the Pres being changed from the 1st 100 in the NTI to a fired match. Was the match (Service Pistol) mentioned  later than the yrs mentioned?

I didn't hear term "hard leg" during those yrs. Would someone explain it, ("hard leg") ? It seems we were only allowed 4 matches for points, 2 regionals, a State Match, and the NTI.

Thanks!, Ron Habegger

I communicated with Jim Henderson yesterday. He confirmed that there will not be a service pistol match this year. He suggested, if you're disappointed, express it on the post Perry survey.

Jim's been working really hard to rebuild the pistol program under the CMP. I would like a service pistol match but I appreciate all he's done so it's hard to fault him. This is only CMP's 2nd year running the match.

See you all in Ohio!

Ron,

“Hard leg” refers to the need of earning a 8 or 10 point award to get a distinguished badge. 

From the 2022 Pistol rule book

9.3.10 Awarding of Distinguished Badges
The CMP awards the Distinguished Pistol Shot Badge, the Distinguished 22 Rimfire Pistol Badge or the Distinguished Revolver Badge when a Civilian competitor earns 30 or more points with the firearm concerned and has earned at least one eight or ten-point award.

Chiz,
Thanks! Are you from Ohio?
Ron

Colt711 wrote:Chiz,
Thanks! Are you from Ohio?
Ron

Yes, I am out of central Ohio. I shoot the matches all over the state.

Colt711 wrote:

SteveT wrote:
They used to have a service pistol EIC at the beginning of the week, before the NRA matches. 

 Steve,
I shot Perry duuring the 70's, 80's & 90's. I don't recall a "ball match" other than President's, NTI, and the team?
Thanks!, Ron Habegger

The CMP started offering a "Warmup" match using the P100 course in about 2008 or so, then they changed it to a regular EIC match about 2015.

chiz1180 wrote:

Arthur wrote:Very disappointed that they don't have an EIC for service pistol after the .45 portion of the 2700. CMP was founded on service type arms.

Then shoot a M9 for service and a 1911 ball gun for the 2700. I personally would rather see more people shoot EICs at smaller matches rather than once a year at Perry.

The M9 match is only for people with no points. The top 10% can earn 4 introductory points. Large matches like Perry provide the opportunity to earn the necessary 8 or 10 point hard leg. All six point legs will not get you the badge. NJ puts on a really great, well attended match in Sept Oct at 3 ranges across 5 days. I have only ever seen a single 8 point leg ever handed out year after year.  
Perry is different, being in the top 1/2 of the top 10% for Gold 10 pt or Silver 8 pt in a match with 200 or more competitors, is a big deal for most people. The NTI gives 10 pt for the top 10%, acknowledged. 


9.3.7 Determining EIC Credit Points The highest scoring 10 percent of all Non-Distinguished competitors who fired recorded shots in at least two stages of the competition in EIC Matches are awarded EIC credit points in accordance with this formula (Table 11, EIC Credit Point Table), provided that the score fired by the competitor equals or exceeds the EIC Minimum Credit Score (MCS, Rule 9.3.: a) Highest one-sixth of the top 10 percent: Gold medal or 10 points. b) Next highest two-sixths of top 10 percent: Silver medal or eight points. c) Remaining three-sixths of top 10 percent: Bronze medal or six points.

Arthur,

I am well aware of the distinguished programs how points work. I was making the point that people complaining that the opportunity for a service match is gone, yet have the opportunity to shoot service type arms in the 2700 and by and large will not shoot them in the 2700. Also Cardinal and Canton will both have EIC's the week before (Bristol likely the week before that) so that is at least three chances at points in well attended matches in a two week period. 

Why does it make sense to have two opportunities for points at the same match for just the Service Pistol EIC? Why not have two separate 22 EIC matches at Perry as well? Why not two Service Revolver matches? 

Also on the topic of rules don't forget that changes were made in the 2022 rule book relating to Criteria for earning points

CMP Pistol Rules 25th edition (3/18/2022) wrote:

9.4.2 Criteria for Earning EIC Credit Points

Eligible competitors who are approved to participate in the Distinguished

Marksman Program may earn EIC credit points as follows:

a) A competitor who competes in an EIC or National Trophy Service Rifle

Match who fires a score that equals or exceeds the Minimum Credit Score

(MCS, Rule 9.3.8, 250-Service Pistol, 260-22 Rimfire Pistol, 315-Service

Revolver) for this discipline will receive six (6) EIC credit points.

b) A competitor who competes in a Special EIC Match (Rules 1.4.2 & 8.2.2)

who fires a score equal to or exceeding the lowest score that earned a 4-

point EIC credit in that Match will receive four (4) EIC credit points.

c) If an eligible competitor fires a score in an EIC or National Trophy Rifle

Match that equals or exceeds the score fired by a competitor who received

eight ( or ten (10) EIC points in that Match, that competitor will also

receive that same number of EIC credit points.

d) If a competitor earned fewer than 30 EIC Service Pistol, 22 Rimfire Pistol

or Service Revolver credit points before becoming disabled and eligible for  this program, those EIC credit points may be credited as Distinguished Marksman credit points.

chiz1180 wrote:Arthur,

I am well aware of the distinguished programs how points work. I was making the point that people complaining that the opportunity for a service match is gone, yet have the opportunity to shoot service type arms in the 2700 and by and large will not shoot them in the 2700. Also Cardinal and Canton will both have EIC's the week before (Bristol likely the week before that) so that is at least three chances at points in well attended matches in a two week period. 

Why does it make sense to have two opportunities for points at the same match for just the Service Pistol EIC? Why not have two separate 22 EIC matches at Perry as well? Why not two Service Revolver matches? 

https://www.ssusa.org/content/dcm-cmp-and-nra-explained/

Chiz 


For the 2700 where optical sights are allowed, people will use them for the competitive advantage. People like to win and are more than willing to use the proper equipment to do so. 

Why not have two events for .22 and the new Service Revolver? Copy and past the address above to read about the history and intent of the DCM and now the CMP. In short, the DCM organization was founded to develop a civilian population skilled in the use of service arms. For a clear comparison. The AR15 is the dominate Service Rifle used in Service Rifle competition. M1 Garand matches, Carbine, 1903 1903A.... are all Games Matches. Sure, you can shoot the Garand in the P110 or NTI , but you're not going to win. The relatively new .22 and brand new Service Revolver programs are not really Service arms. To be very clear, some really incredible scores are being shot in the .22 EIC events. Excellent displays of marksmanship. Times do change and the CMP is leaning hard to the Games side of things. This is suppose to be fun after all. 

For your comments on attending Cardinal , Canton and Perry in 2 weeks. Or is it 3 weeks for all? Something like that is for the really high level competitors or retirees.  

To circle back to my original point. Perry providing the opportunity to compete in a large EIC match is a huge help to competitors needing that elusive hard leg.   

All the best.
Arthur 


Data from pre Covid 2019 follows. 


2019 CMP EIC results. Looks like Mason was killing it in 2019. A total of thirteen 10 and 8 point legs were awarded at Perry compared to a total of three hard legs for Canton and Cardinal combined. There is no comparison to Perry. 

Non-Distinguished Ranking	all results	Talbert, Mason	281 - 7
	Print 2019 National Trophy Pistol Matches & SAFS Non-Distinguished Ranking Below are the ranked results of all eligible Non-Distinguished Competitors. The Minimum Credit Score (MCS) for EIC Points is 250. 26 Legs will be awarded.

Canton 2019 EIC match, one 10 and one 8 were awarded. 

Mason Scott Talbert (340904)	10	26	36
Steve Lightfoot (263126)	8	26	34
LCpl Johnathan Louis Cardenas USMC (343249)	6	12	26
Scott Rogala (186209)	6	24

Cardinal 2019 EIC match, one 8 point leg awarded. 

Mason Scott Talbert (340904)	8	16	36
Emil Milev (147381)	6	6	24

Arthur wrote:

chiz1180 wrote:

Arthur wrote:Very disappointed that they don't have an EIC for service pistol after the .45 portion of the 2700. CMP was founded on service type arms.

Then shoot a M9 for service and a 1911 ball gun for the 2700. I personally would rather see more people shoot EICs at smaller matches rather than once a year at Perry.

The M9 match is only for people with no points. The top 10% can earn 4 introductory points. Large matches like Perry provide the opportunity to earn the necessary 8 or 10 point hard leg. All six point legs will not get you the badge. NJ puts on a really great, well attended match in Sept Oct at 3 ranges across 5 days. I have only ever seen a single 8 point leg ever handed out year after year.  
Perry is different, being in the top 1/2 of the top 10% for Gold 10 pt or Silver 8 pt in a match with 200 or more competitors, is a big deal for most people. The NTI gives 10 pt for the top 10%, acknowledged. 


9.3.7 Determining EIC Credit Points The highest scoring 10 percent of all Non-Distinguished competitors who fired recorded shots in at least two stages of the competition in EIC Matches are awarded EIC credit points in accordance with this formula (Table 11, EIC Credit Point Table), provided that the score fired by the competitor equals or exceeds the EIC Minimum Credit Score (MCS, Rule 9.3.: a) Highest one-sixth of the top 10 percent: Gold medal or 10 points. b) Next highest two-sixths of top 10 percent: Silver medal or eight points. c) Remaining three-sixths of top 10 percent: Bronze medal or six points.

What if you have .22 points, but no service pistol points? Can you still do the introductory match?

Yes. M9 match can be shot for service pistol points if you have none. All shots at 25yds, can use two hands, with a rack grade m9.