Off-topic question - not bullseye - for the best precision, how many hands to use?

First topic message reminder :

I bought my Springfield SA-35, a Browning Hi Power clone, just to enjoy shooting it, no competition.  It's not legal for bullseye anyway, unless somehow 9mm has been approved, which I doubt.

My question here, is "everything else being equal", which would offer the best chance of precision shooting, using one hand, or two.

The Springfield is small, and light, and reasonably inexpensive, with an MSRP of $699.  Eventually they'll be selling for that.  9mm ammo is readily available at reasonable prices, and Wilson Combat even sells "remanufactured" ammo, so shooting for fun with the Springfield is sort of like doing so with a 22.  It's an inexpensive way to just enjoy shooting.  It's not made for competition, and as far as I know, the only extra parts being sold for the gun are grips/stocks.  There aren't any red dot sights (yet) for the gun.

As to "strength" and "power", I was born without either.  In a past life, I would have been the "115 pound weakling" in the old Charles Atlas advertisements in all the comic books I used to read.

Which gets to the point of this post.  Which is inherently more precise (maybe not accurate) shooting with one hand or two?

You're leaving out the single thing that destroys my attempts at precision shooting - weight.  For me, and with a heavy gun, especially if it's front-heavy, that second hand supporting half or more of the weight of the gun makes for a more stable firing platform.  My antidote is dry-fire, lots of it.

I assume you mean "precision", not "accuracy".

Mike M. wrote:Honestly?  One-handed will give you better accuracy.  A two-handed grip is better for recoil management, but it's going to be easier to keep the forces on the gun balanced with one hand.

I don't know for sure, but two hands should be more solid with practice. 

Solid is solid.  Hard to beat solid hold if done right.

Dave Salyer did a great job of improving my Nelson Conversion on top of a Caspian/Salyer lower.  I went to the range today with only one goal, shoot 10 rounds into the black at 50 yards.  First target was 20 rounds, mostly too high.  Five clicks down and another 20 rounds and I got better than I ever dreamed of.  

Every time I try one handed, even dry-firing one handed, I get frustrated because my body won't hold the gun still.  You're right, "solid is solid".  But it's useless at any real Bullseye match anyplace other than my club.  I think of it as "cheating", but it's the way I learned to shoot a lifetime ago.

I'm getting Physical Therapy to improve my balance, and most nights I do what feels like endless dry-firing.  For me, it's like trying to do what wrestlers do, but at 78 years old and not being very strong.......

If I tried this one handed, you'd all be asking me what kind of shotgun I was using.   :-(

In Michigan, civilians can shoot PPC matches.

2-handed required!!

Jim, wow....    Maybe I should have stayed in Ann Arbor.

I'm gaining - I can shoot my 17-5 one handed - I will do that for my next range visit.  But the Nelson, as shown in my photo, one handed???   No.

I'll never forget the photos you posted of all your revolvers.  Gosh, I looked so close, and dreamed.  You should have a gallery here - now I can't remember how to even find them.

I tried - I can even shoot my new Springfield SA-35 one handed.  I dry-fired it for night after night, so I got used to it.  I think with two hands I am more steady, but with a little (lot!!!!) more dry-fire, I'll be OK.

If my range, Hollywood Rifle and Pistol Club, was hosting serious Bullseye matches, I think I would be more involved.  As it is, too many people are like me - most of them shoot at 15 and 25 yards, two handed.   Every so often a small group wanted to be score separately, shooting one handed at 25 and 50.  

What do you mean by "civilians can shoot PPC matches, two-handed"?  I guess I'll need to read up on PPC and what kind of guns are allowed.  Probably open sights, but that's OK.  Maybe I'll ask our club if we can do that along with the other classes they do now.  If so, I would enjoy that very much.  Thank you!!!

Michigan Police Combat Pistol Association (MPCPA)

Since early 90’s the organization (formed by LEO’s) has allowed civilians to shoot their matches, indoors and outdoors.
Outdoors even has a civilian division.

The January Taylor Mich indoor match has 400-500 competitors over a 2 week match!

http://www.mpcpa.org/

"If all things are equal then it doesn't matter whether one uses one hand or two hands, since all things are equal". Since all things aren't equal, then here is my take on the matter. The answer comes from a guy named "Newton" in my opinion.

Given that one hand also means only using one arm and that one has adequate strength to "hold" the gun with that one hand/arm support then one will probably be just as stable as using one or two hands/arms. Now causing the gun to "fire" is another story, and that is where Newton comes in.

An object will remain at rest, unless acted upon by a greater force. It will take a greater force to move a heavier object, than the force to move a lighter object. A typical handgun will weigh much less than the force (trigger pull) required to cause it to fire, with the exception of Free Pistols and Air Pistols, so when we apply force to the trigger to cause it to fire, the entire gun wants to move. Our grip (force) on the gun reduces the amount the gun is likely to move during this process. In essence our gripping the gun adds weight or mass to the gun, so that the force of our trigger pulling doesn't move it excessively. 

Take any handgun that has a normal weight of 28 - 42 ounces which has a "laser type" sight and hold it on a target using one's dominant hand and with two hands. Even try holding the gun with weak hand and use dominant hand for support I would venture to say that you are similarly stable using your dominant hand as you are using two hands. The big difference is when you start applying pressure to the trigger to cause the gun to fire. Now to cause that gun to fire is probably 35 - 64 ounces or more of pressure on the trigger. The gun wants to move since this is a greater force. Remember Newton? A tighter grip is likely more easily obtained using two hands than one hand, thus improving one's ability to render a good shot. 

Also note that "time" plays a role in this. Given sufficient time one can dress up the hold and trigger press during a shot sequence on a firearm with a heavy trigger, or poor trigger. However, if a shot must be delivered in a shorter period of time, then a lighter trigger, or a firmer grip is definitely favorable.  A very firm grip can mitigate the effect of trigger jerks. Again, all about force. If I could hold the gun tight enough, I could pull the trigger with a jack hammer and it wouldn't matter, conversely a slight trigger jerk, with a very loose grip can be a disaster.

In a nutshell, one's grip adds weight to the object which wants to move around. The more weight you can add to the object, the less likely it wants to move around. I can add more weight with two hands than I can with one. Note that "holding" is one thing, "firing" is yet another. Within reason, the tighter the grip, the tighter the group, when shooting a typical handgun. 

My $.02

Allgoodhits wrote:.........Given that one hand also means only using one arm and that one has adequate strength to "hold" the gun with that one hand/arm support then one will probably be just as stable as using one or two hands/arms........

For me, that is the problem.  I don't have the strength to do that.  Maybe if I started Bullseye half a century ago, I'd be fine today, but I didn't, and I'm now 78, and I'm the character who played the "98 pound weakling" in the old Charles Atlas ads in comic books.

There is no point in competing when I'm not strong enough to hold the gun with one hand.  Let alone holding it still.  I've been trying to get better for years, and am currently signed up for Physical Therapy twice a week, to improve this and "balance".  I can shoot acceptably well with two hands, but the only gun I can hold still with one hand is my new Springfield SA-35, which is light enough.  I am getting better, but I wrote that last year, and the year before.  The problem is not Bullseye, or the gun, or the rules, but me.  My gut feeling is that one hand should be better than two hands, and eventually I'll maybe get to that point before my body falls apart and I stop shooting.....

Try to pick up a 30 pound weight with your one hand, and hold it out in front of you, as if it was a gun.  Chances are, you'll experience what I do with most of my bullseye guns.  My "plan b" is to just shoot a light gun with open sights or a Vortex Venom sight, which feels weightless.  

........The first gun I ever bought was a S&W Model 29 with 6" barrel and an optical sight mounted on top.  In retrospect, that was a very, very poor choice...   but I can still shoot it fine, using two hands, and back when I was "target shooting", I used that 29 for everything, and even won a few (frozen) turkeys at our local bullseye turkey shoot competition....). The weight didn't bother me back then.  ....my second gun was a S&W Model 41, from a co-worker, along with his reloading gear and another Model 29 with 10 5/8" barrel for silhouette shooting, all from this same co-worker......

mikemyers wrote:

Allgoodhits wrote:.........Given that one hand also means only using one arm and that one has adequate strength to "hold" the gun with that one hand/arm support then one will probably be just as stable as using one or two hands/arms........

For me, that is the problem.  I don't have the strength to do that.  Maybe if I started Bullseye half a century ago, I'd be fine today, but I didn't, and I'm now 78, and I'm the character who played the "98 pound weakling" in the old Charles Atlas ads in comic books.

There is no point in competing when I'm not strong enough to hold the gun with one hand.  Let alone holding it still.  I've been trying to get better for years, and am currently signed up for Physical Therapy twice a week, to improve this and "balance".  I can shoot acceptably well with two hands, but the only gun I can hold still with one hand is my new Springfield SA-35, which is light enough.  I am getting better, but I wrote that last year, and the year before.  The problem is not Bullseye, or the gun, or the rules, but me.  My gut feeling is that one hand should be better than two hands, and eventually I'll maybe get to that point before my body falls apart and I stop shooting.....

Try to pick up a 30 pound weight with your one hand, and hold it out in front of you, as if it was a gun.  Chances are, you'll experience what I do with most of my bullseye guns.  My "plan b" is to just shoot a light gun with open sights or a Vortex Venom sight, which feels weightless.  

........The first gun I ever bought was a S&W Model 29 with 6" barrel and an optical sight mounted on top.  In retrospect, that was a very, very poor choice...   but I can still shoot it fine, using two hands, and back when I was "target shooting", I used that 29 for everything, and even won a few (frozen) turkeys at our local bullseye turkey shoot competition....). The weight didn't bother me back then.  ....my second gun was a S&W Model 41, from a co-worker, along with his reloading gear and another Model 29 with 10 5/8" barrel for silhouette shooting, all from this same co-worker......

I would propose the following:

1) Try to obtain a lighter platform. A 1911 aluminum lower, with an Aluminum Marvel .22 Conversion, with either iron sights or a lightweight optic. This will make actual shooting less athletic so to speak. That is about as light of a platform that I can think of. Maybe one of the Ruger Lightweight Mk IVs or a Volquartsen lightweight upper are addition considerations.

(2) Line Drill: I'll do my best to describe what it is.
A) Find a location in your home where you can hang a rope (about 1/4 to 1/2 diameter) which can extend from ceiling to floor. If you don't have such a location, then locate a corner of intersecting walls. They will serve as the vertical line too. 
B) Make sure gun is empty. Position yourself close enough to the line/corner so that from a low ready position and to a high settle down after the gun has been lifted position you can vertically trace the "line".  Probably about 10 ft away. Whatever distance "away" which enables you to vertically scribe full range of motion with the shooting arm.
C) Have your stance and position such that you as much as possible are "naturally" aligned with the line.
D) From low ready, start slowly tracing the vertical line to the ceiling. Pause, then slowly trace line downward to floor. Repeat for 5 minutes. The object is to trace the line slowly and to stay on the line. If you drift to one side more often than the other, your stance is not aligning naturally.  If your stance and position are correct, then the error on either side should be about equal. If you favor one side, then move hind foot slightly to correct. Having said that the most critical alignment area is at about horizontal since that is where the actual shooting will take place, but work the entire range of motion on the line drill, from floor to ceiling.
E) If you cannot do this for 5 minutes continuously, then rest as needed, or use a lighter gun, or no gun. If you find it too easy, trace more slowly, or use a heavier gun.

The Line Drill will do multiple things for you, or anyone.
1) It will strengthen those specific muscle groups used in shooting a handgun, and it will work those muscles in the exact manner in which they will be used.
2) It will train/coordinate those muscles (conscious thought, later to be subconscious) how to work together in order to maintain vertical alignment, and any point along that line, could be your horizontal too at some point.
3) It will reveal if your position and stance are not correct. 
4) If training specific to bullseye, use one hand, but you certainly could train using both hands, or even the weak hand. I do all three, because I shoot one handed both strong and weak handed as well as two handed.

Last, this Line Drill will work. It is not fun, and it sounds easy, but try it. It is intended to be an exercise, treat it as one. Take it very seriously, very slow, very meticulous. If you need a break, take it, but go back to it. If practical, do 5 minutes twice a day. In 10-14 days you will notice a significant difference in the hold and in your strength. Too easy, again either add weight, go slower, or go longer. Maybe 6 minutes, or 3 times a day or 7 minutes etc.

If you do this, you will likely hate me, because it hurts, but will thank me after that.

Go for it!

I do line drills also, if you're honest with yourself they help a lot.
Stan

I should do this in addition to what I'm doing now.  Dave Salyer filled a 45 magazine with lead.  

I have an app programmed on my phone that signals me to:
     Hold up gun, one handed, aimed at target for 25 seconds
     Lower gun and rest for 25 seconds.
This repeats for 30 repetitions, taking just under half an hour
Then I take a break, and then do it all over again.

To avoid being thoroughly bored, I often do it with a movie I'm familiar with playing on my TV.

The times used to be shorter, and originally I used a lighter weight.  

For shooting with two hands, I feel like I'm using a shooting rest - the gun is that steady.
For shooting with one hand, not yet.

I think I will start practicing at the range at 50 yards from now on.  I did it yesterday with my Nelson Conversion, and 20 rounds went into the black.  This was two handed.  

If I get to where I can do my own workout, one handed, and the gun remains steady, then adding all the "extra" things you noted will certainly help me.  But the very basic part, for me, remains holding the gun up aimed at a target, without my hand/gun starting to shake or hurting so I need to lower it.

.......and to be honest, I need to add here that bullseye matches at my club, Hollywood Rifle and Pistol Club, are shot at 15 and 25 yards, and as many hands as the. shooter wants to use.  We do have a small group that sets up separately, at 25 and 50 yards, one handed.  I would like to be part of that group.  .....and again, to be honest, I enjoy shooting all my guns, those for bullseye, and all my other guns.  I guess that makes me a "bullseye wannabe".

@Mike as long as you are training or competing you (and I) are not a wannabe. You're doing it.

Have you read Lanny Basham's With Winning In Mind?

You are the sort of guy who trains every day even if your body or schedule don't allow the ideal circumstances. I know I am

Yes, I bought the book.  
     I agree that if I don't "think I can do it", I won't.
     I don't agree that if I "think I can do it", I will.  Not yet, anyway.

Yes, just about every day, dry-fire.  Several times a day usually.  Makes a huge difference.
Every year though, I'm just that little bit better than before.
If I ever doubt that, I can check my targets and scores.
But I'm stubborn, and still want to do it one handed.

......but I ought to add, I think doing it two handed is better than not doing it at all.
If I wasn't enjoying myself, I wouldn't be going to the range three or four times a week.....

...the problem with hold only drills, they are static. Like an isometric. A line drill or similar range of motion drill is dynamic. I would suggest dynamic, range of motion, building based on your description of strength as problem area. Holding drill may be more useful later, after basic strength is where you want it.

Regarding the book. If you think you can't, you never will. If you think you can, does not mean that you can do it now! It is not intended to be instant gratification.

Per your last comment do line drill with one hand. If necessary, with nothing in hand.

Out...

OK, back to second grade, or whatever.  For at least half my time at the range, one hand, and move the target back to 15 for a while, until I make it to third grade.  

Keith Sanderson wrote about holding drills, and said if the person wasn't worn out by the time he finished, he wasn't doing the drill correctly.  I watched his videos after joining my club, and buying a 1911.  I tried what he said, but failed - I couldn't hold my 1911 up in front of me with one hand.  I think I'll try again now - I'm now strong enough to hold the gun, but not to hold it still.

I started line drills with nothing in my hand, my thumb as a guide on the line. Down to up on the line, then back down, it takes 1 minute to do, you do not go fast, that is not the correct way. You will shake a little on the upper part until you gain muscle tone. I did this for a week, 5 one minute sessions twice per day. The next week I used a pistol, you are trying to build the smaller muscle in your shoulder, that's why you will shake some when getting past eye level to the top. I always figure 45 degrees bottom to 45 degrees top then back down keeping your thumb following that line as close as you can, or using the side of the gun or the rear sight along that line.
 Stan