Hello Bullseye - L (Disscussion of Camp Perry and other from the NRA Shooting Director

First topic message reminder :

Greetings fellow bullseye shooters, from NRAHQ Competitive Shooting.  I have finally found time to register and join the forum. 

In years past I was a very active member of this forum, although it was in a different format then.  I also was a co-host of the annual picnic, which went by the wayside some time back.

I am now the Director of Competitive Shooting for the NRA, something that this lowly competitor never thought would happen.  However, it has changed my life dramatically.  Although I managed to get to one bullseye match early in the year, the needs of competitive shooting in the many disciplines that I oversee prohibited me from attending additional events.  I will try to do better next year.  As an example of my schedule, between July 1 and August 31, I had 3 days off.

I'll give you a short update on a couple of things related to pistol.

I am still working on electronic targets.  The main difficulty with this is that, because we are on a military base, nothing permanent can be done to the ranges, so the system we purchase must be totally portable and easy to put up and take down each year.  I have made contact with Oakwood Controls, Sius-Ascor, and Kongsberg target systems.  I am constructing a business model to present to the NRA on what the system will cost, what NRA's savings will be, and how long it will take them to recoup their investment.  I'm trying hard to get a system up and running for 2015.

Coupled with the electronic target system comes a question.  Because we will be able to run through the course of fire in a shorter time frame, we can shorten the number of days that it takes to complete the National Championships.  In a previous competitor's meeting and in some side talks with competitors, I was told that shortening the events is NOT what they want, because they want to take full advantage of their once-a-year opportunity to meet with friends and go to dinner with them.  Your opinions?

Budget.  I've looked over some comments before I signed up here regarding what the NRA should do to make things easier and better for competitors.  Believe me, that's exactly what I want to do.  However, the NRA is NOT a giant pot of unrestricted money that can be spent any way that I want to.  Like every business model (just like where you probably have at work), I have a budget and I'm expected to work within that budget.  There are lots of things that I would like to do at Camp Perry but I'm restricted by the fact that we don't own Camp Perry so must always take into account what the military will let us do, and restricted by how much money I have available.  I may be further restricted by how much money the military has available to support us.

When looking at what it costs to run Camp Perry, my budget far exceeds the entry fees that I take in, so the NRA actually ends up subsidizing each and every competitor, even after sponsorship is figured in.  When looking at the costs involved at Camp Perry, please consider the per diem, housing and travel costs of volunteers; consider the hourly pay costs for the range staff that keeps the trash emptied, arranges for porta potties and cleaning, maintenance of the equipment, and provides coffee, water, etc.; consider the hourly rate of the  target crew that pastes all those targets on cardboard and delivers the targets to the range; consider the cost of supplies like targets, cardboard and glue to make sure that you have targets available; and consider the hourly rate costs of the people in the Stat Office to compile and produce results for almost 700 competitors and the costs of their equipment like computers, printers, ink, etc., and this is only a partial list.

Would I like to do more at Camp Perry for you?  You bet I would but I have to find a way to pay for it.  But please also remember that our support consists of more than Camp Perry.  I need to look at how I can better serve the local matches, sectionals, and regionals as well.

Pistol Committee.  The Pistol Committee will be meeting on October 26th here at NRAHQ.  Many suggestions were made either at the competitor's meeting or via email and additional suggestions can be sent here at NRAHQ or to any committee member.  Suggestions sent here should be directed to the National Manager of Pistol, Tom Hughes, thughes@nrahq.org  Your Pistol Committee this year is; William Allen (Chairman), Ted Carter (Vice-Chairman), Kenn Boyd (Chief referee National Matches), Jim Lenardson, Il Ling New, Tim Pawol, Brian Zins, and your secretary is Tom Hughes.

That's a brief statement regarding pistol but I will stand for questions and try to answer them on a timely basis.  However, most of my days lately have been focused on the 2015 World Palma Rifle Championship that we will be hosting at Camp Perry.  Talk about a lot of work!!!!!!!!!!!

Dennis (Denny) Willing
Director of Competitive Shooting
National Rifle Association

I'll grant that.  Both are a pretty poor setup - and it really doesn't take that much.  The Muzzle-Loading Associations International Committee (world governing body for BP) site has the whole rule set posted online.

I'll add one other point about a new target system - there have to be rules that allow small clubs to use a light setup without electronic targets.

A turning target rig is expensive and cantankerous.  Modern electronics are cheap.  And I don't think it would be a particular feat to design a single-target system that was both self-contained (battery, timer, target holder, SHOOT light, STOP light) and could be coupled to other units.  And was cheap enough for a shooter to own his personal unit.  This would drive the cost down to the point where a small club could afford it.

That being said, I honestly think the PR side of the business is the key.  All the precision disciplines have been losing shooters to the run-and-gun events.  But if you go read the old books on combat pistol shooting, they all had the same advice - go shoot bullseye pistol for a year or two.  The precision events are to shooting what ballet is to dance.  They lay a rock-solid foundation on which everything else can be built.

We have GOT to get a fairly regular allocation of articles on precision events in the various NRA magazines.  And not just (or even mostly) articles on who won - articles on how to get started would be more useful.

And yes, I'll be happy to write a couple.

The rulebook already allows us to host non-turning target matches--either signaled by horns or commands to "fire" or "cease fire". They are "approved" matches as opposed to "registered" matches.

Clubs don't need ANY equipment to host a match that way--but many shooters expect more. An iPad running the bullseye commands app through an amplifier and speakers wouldn't be a bad way to go.

Maybe more "approved" matches will eliminate some of the intimidation factor and help grassroots growth because they are less formal?

For us very hard of hearing, audible only signals do not always cut it.

But audible matches are legal now. Nobody has a blinky light system now. For those who are unable to hear audible commands only will have to settle for turning target matches only. Those are going to be promoted as "registered" matches. ALL "registered" matches have audible commands AND turning targets.

Speaking of growing the sport.   Is there a reason when I click on the coming events list in the November issue of Shooting Sports USA, that a list of events clearly marked "September" comes up?    Is anyone else having this issue?

Why worry about changing existing ranges to match what perry has? Perry has always been different from every other range i have ever shot on and nobody cared. Its the only range i know of that you shoot 50 then move everything forward 25 yards and other than canton its the only range that shoots out in the open and not from covered firing points. So what ever they do to perry should not even be a concern for other ranges. All this back and forth just confirms the fact that perry should be rebuilt with conventional equipment and continue the true heritage of the sport, if electronic setups were the way to go international shooting wouldn't have all but died out in the US. Imo anyway.

DavidR wrote:Why worry about changing existing ranges to match what perry has? Perry has always been different from every other range i have ever shot on and nobody cared. Its the only range i know of that you shoot 50 then move everything forward 25 yards and other than canton its the only range that shoots out in the open and not from covered firing points.

Not to be argumentative, but ranges on which the line moves for sustained fire are, Lorain (OH) R &P, Jackson (MI) outdoors, Taylor (MI), Columbus (OH) (now defunct).
Perry does often have their own rules, prohibition of sweatbands, bracelets on wrist, arm, of shooting hand, special red dot rules @ NM's unknown until we arrived, 1980 or so?
All this talk of matches run with audible signals vice turning targets would make for added problems in match operation....determining who fired early, late etc. Maybe desirable in these "intro to BE" matches to create interest but little further. Our winter league lived w/ all ranges excepting one not having turners. After a good many yrs the league was finally scheduled in our range to take the advantage of the turners. The downside is that the other ranges never upgraded and are now gone.

"Concentrate on the front sight"!!  We all have had this fundamental drilled into us by every instructor/article known to modern man and now we introduce another object to look at?
Ron

Dennis:  Thanks for signing up and posting.

I have been a competitor at camp perry for 13 years straight.  All of it as a Bullseye pistol and or CMP pistol competitor.  The experience of living and shooting on base for a week is what kept me coming back.  Great people.  That and also the convenience of the vendors to restock my supplies for the year.

Sadly, I will not be returning this year and maybe not the next.  I have taken on the leadership of my daughter's smallbore rifle team and with the move to Indiana I won't be able to compete at all during pistol week.  I also will not be taking my team to Indiana for the national championships either as that venue is just not the same nor will there be any vendors to visit.

I for one prefer the turning targets over the electronic systems.  I believe that in the long run, the electronic systems will be more costly to maintain.

After scanning the 5 pages of responses I am prompted to say

Electronic target system is great technology, it may change the game, it may increase costs overall, it may reduce the range operation complexity, it may speed up the pace, it may work well in the rain and I would prefer to see turning targets.

In the mean time if NRA could continue to explore electronic system use by working with manufacture to get a few more systems in use and traveling to many outdoor matches possibly the "may" can be replaced with "will" and shooters will be supportive and manufactures will figure out better/more reliable outdoor systems etc. Then the community will know what it wants. Don't force it.

I think the NRA competitive shooting should focus more attention to supporting leagues, local and regional matches by helping to developing more places to shoot and more competitive shooting. Work on the base of the sport and not on the top.

Honestly I don't see NRA supporting local competitive shooting. I may be wrong but besides keeping track of your classification and maintaining a rule book what is done to grow participation at the base of the sport?

I spend a lot of time teaching basic marksmanship and safety to boy scouts. When boys and parents ask how they can get into competitive shooting I cant give them an answer beyond buy guns and join a local range with little to no youth programs. Yes 80 miles away there is a club with a coach and a youth program. Yes there are 4H programs. The closest one has a 2 year waiting list because the location they shoot at is small and this limits the number. Everyone shrugs and no new prospective NRA supporting family is realized.

I started shooting 4 years ago at age 50. I was in happy to have a twice a month league to go shoot. This lead to shooting 2 matches on year 1, then 3 then 4  and 6  outdoor matched this year. So I am now almost hooked for life. But the local league is gone. The local outdoor international matches are gone. The local air pistol league has dried up. One local youth 4H shooting group has folded from lack of a facility to host them. I must travel more to help me develop towards my goal. I have thoughts of switching to smallbore silhouette or some other shooting game because matches are plentiful, close by and folks are just as friendly. Nope stubborn and staying with pistol for now. Sure wish there was a local league so I can invite the friends I take to the range to come and try out a match and join the league.

If conventional pistol shooting was a business I would say the business model is wrong. Needs leadership and change to grow or it will continue to decline in participation.

The very things people ask for are mostly grassroots level things that the NRA simply cannot do.

The NRA, in the Education & Training Division, has a range development staff to help with building new ranges or modifying old ones.  Total charge to you = $0.00

The NRA has funding available for these projects from the NRA Foundation and money from Friends of the NRA is also available at the State level.  Total charge to you = $0.00, but you receive money instead.

The NRA has trained instructors available to help train new shooters and they are at almost every club.

Everything one needs to get a range and shooting programs in place is already there, waiting for someone to take advantage of it.

The problem lies, not with the NRA, but with having enough people with the get up and go to tackle the projects necessary.  Those people are few and far between but someone apparently has to be blamed so let's blame the NRA for lack of leadership.

The Competitive Shooting Division has a total staff of less than 25.  Here are the number of people I have to run programs; Pistol 2, High Power 1, Silhouette 1, Smallbore 1, Air Gun 1, Black Powder 1, Collegiate 1, Admin 2, the rest are support staff.

I simply do not have the staff to conduct grassroots programs.  That is up to you.  If you want something to happen, get started with it and we will be there for you every step of the way.  Free money and free advice.

If anyone stands by and watches a program fail, it's not the NRA's fault.  We were here ready to help but no one asked.

Grassroots = local volunteers.  I helped run a local club league for a few years and ran some great bullseye matches with as many as 58 competitors.  There was a drop off from the peak about 7 years ago for me as far as attendance.  I finally stopped running matches because of poorly run club BOD and my taking over my daughters junior rifle team.

I think the major reason for the drop off in overall attendance over the years has been:

1. Demonization of guns in our culture (fewer juniors getting involved as a result).
2. Lack of good quality but affordable guns.  Look at what happened when Hammerli got bought by sig/Walther.  Quality went down and they went from premier bullseye manufacturer to cheap plastic entry level guns at mid range prices.
3. Local states driving out competition grade gun manufacturers.. MASS forced many high end manufacturers to stop selling in their state. CT will now follow.  As has CA.
4. Expenses.  I never knew how relatively cheap bullseye was until I got into smallbore rifle!  WOW.  But for most people, bullseye is expensive and ammunition and reloading supplies are hard to find.

None of these things are the fault of the NRA.  At least not directly.  Perhaps the NRA could do a better job of presenting themselves as less of a pro-gun organization and more of a pro family/fun/safety organization.  Certainly an uphill battle with the media working against us.

Oh and as far as the friends of the NRA... they need to do a better job of keeping track/organizing grant reporting.  I know of a situation where a guy had received a grant and purchased some equipment/rifles for a local program and the NRA lost the final report. Years went by and he had to fight to get a new grant cleared even though he knew he sent in the report.  Maybe that was an isolated incident but if you have an outstanding grant without a final report, maybe it should be followed up on immediately rather than waiting for the next grant to come in. That can cause a lot of frustration and angst.

bdutton wrote:Grassroots = local volunteers.  I helped run a local club league for a few years and ran some great bullseye matches with as many as 58 competitors.  There was a drop off from the peak about 7 years ago for me as far as attendance.  I finally stopped running matches because of poorly run club BOD and my taking over my daughters junior rifle team.

I think the major reason for the drop off in overall attendance over the years has been:

1. Demonization of guns in our culture (fewer juniors getting involved as a result).
2. Lack of good quality but affordable guns.  Look at what happened when Hammerli got bought by sig/Walther.  Quality went down and they went from premier bullseye manufacturer to cheap plastic entry level guns at mid range prices.
3. Local states driving out competition grade gun manufacturers.. MASS forced many high end manufacturers to stop selling in their state. CT will now follow.  As has CA.
4. Expenses.  I never knew how relatively cheap bullseye was until I got into smallbore rifle!  WOW.  But for most people, bullseye is expensive and ammunition and reloading supplies are hard to find.

None of these things are the fault of the NRA.  At least not directly.  Perhaps the NRA could do a better job of presenting themselves as less of a pro-gun organization and more of a pro family/fun/safety organization.  Certainly an uphill battle with the media working against us.

Also the evolving of the gun market into defensive and spray shooting.

Mr. Willing

My previous post showed my frustration with the disappearing opportunity to pursue competitive conventional pistol shooting in my area. Didn't mean to bash the NRA in general. I give NRA kudos for offering structure for safety training, advocacy etc. Respect the position you have and appreciate your reaching out and asking what conventional pistol shooters want.

I got your message that NRA competitive program lacks staff and funding for addressing grass root competitive shooting needs.

I agree with you on grass root programs survive on volunteers.

As a grass roots supporter. I have my rifle instructor cert. Drove a long ways to find a instructor trainer and a class at a reasonable cost. I spent many Saturdays this year and several previous years plus many evenings to conduct rifle and shotgun merit badge classes. This past weekend I supplied the ammo, rifles and shotguns so 56 scouts could have an hour of shooting. I have purchased youth sized rifles and shotguns for my classes. NRA doesn't offer grants to small efforts like mine. Pretty significant out of pocket costs. There are lots of guys like me. Maybe someday there will be a way to connect us and supporting us in ways we cant think of so we can address more grass root needs.

DirComp wrote:The very things people ask for are mostly grassroots level things that the NRA simply cannot do.

The NRA, in the Education & Training Division, has a range development staff to help with building new ranges or modifying old ones.  Total charge to you = $0.00

The NRA has funding available for these projects from the NRA Foundation and money from Friends of the NRA is also available at the State level.  Total charge to you = $0.00, but you receive money instead.

The NRA has trained instructors available to help train new shooters and they are at almost every club.

Everything one needs to get a range and shooting programs in place is already there, waiting for someone to take advantage of it.

The problem lies, not with the NRA, but with having enough people with the get up and go to tackle the projects necessary.  Those people are few and far between but someone apparently has to be blamed so let's blame the NRA for lack of leadership.

The Competitive Shooting Division has a total staff of less than 25.  Here are the number of people I have to run programs; Pistol 2, High Power 1, Silhouette 1, Smallbore 1, Air Gun 1, Black Powder 1, Collegiate 1, Admin 2, the rest are support staff.

I simply do not have the staff to conduct grassroots programs.  That is up to you.  If you want something to happen, get started with it and we will be there for you every step of the way.  Free money and free advice.

If anyone stands by and watches a program fail, it's not the NRA's fault.  We were here ready to help but no one asked.

I think it still mostly comes down to brand [sport] recognition. Having the stuff available to the local clubs is great. But without people knowing about the sport no one will ask. I know you don't have a huge staff, or a ton of money to work with. But as the sports die off, you will have less and less, and need for fewer and fewer people.. If you want to boost a slow growing sport, maybe its time to pool some resources. Pull some man hours, and project money away from growing popular aspect of the shooting sports for a short time, and boost the "brand" that is bullseye shooting. A healthy sport will keep growing on its own for a short wile, and the time and money for a short period of time might just jumpstart BE shooting.

Im not trying to tell you all how to do your job. You know the day to day aspect of it better then we. But seeing big money dropped into something like the electric targets, that will do nothing to grow the sport, and not going to the foundation of the sport of BE that is crumbling and falling apart, is a little dishearting.

Perhaps a small way to help would be to feature juniors shooting bullseye/conventional pistol in print and media ads for pro gun.  Teach a child competitive shooting means they do well in school and life.  Maybe it is just around here, but looking at all the juniors that have been through competitive air rifle and small bore I cannot think of even one that turned out "bad". Multiple college grads, some went in Service, but every last one ended up a few cuts above "average".  Competitive shooting teaches you how to really use your brain.

ChipEck wrote:Perhaps a small way to help would be to feature juniors shooting bullseye/conventional pistol in print and media ads for pro gun.  Teach a child competitive shooting means they do well in school and life.  Maybe it is just around here, but looking at all the juniors that have been through competitive air rifle and small bore I cannot think of even one that turned out "bad". Multiple college grads, some went in Service, but every last one ended up a few cuts above "average".  Competitive shooting teaches you how to really use your brain.

Or... maybe offer a scholarship fund for junior shooters that do well in school and in competition.

For rifle, there are many areas with booming juniors programs.  The lure of a college scholarship has helped this growth. 

Do we have any college pistol coaches on this board that can chime in here?

Can you donate to NRA so funds will go to college scholarships for competitive pistol (or rifle)?  I see over 4,000 people have viewed this topic.  If everyone gave $50 that would maybe generate some interest.  NRA could advertise scholarships available for youths that are registered and have competed in some number of sanctioned  matches???

I'm wondering if I should spring for a Pistol Instructor card to add to my Rifle and Range Officer ones.

Last time I started a Junior program (re-started after I think more than 15 years' hiatus, and I'm sure no one has picked it up again), it was smallbore rifle and the most enthusiastic participant REALLY wanted to do handgun. Years later, he was in a temporary pinch and I loaned him a handgun so he could--successfully--train to be a handgun instructor at Front Sight.

Nowdays, I'd have a Juniors program do BOTH rifle and pistol. Too bad the local leadership bumped the 50-foot indoor range OFF of the first-phase development plan for our "Regional" range facility. But I shall take leave of murmuring...

One thing I would like to see is the NRA putting more competition articles in the American Rifleman. Remember when the coverage of Nationals at Camp Perry took up a large section of the magazine?

How many pages were dedicated to the Nationals this year? I'll have to admit I quit looking for competition info in it, I get the issue, leaf through it, and pitch it.

I'm in the minority here for electronic targets, I shot the air gun matches at the range at Perry and they work well. Some give the reason not to use them is to keep the matches slow to socialize. I feel if it moves them along faster, there would be more time to socialize. I don't like to waste time because "thats the way we have always done it".

"I get the issue, leaf through it, and pitch it."

Same here, usually.  I guess I am old school.  I like what I grew up with.  Traditional targeting, hunting, old timers doing good.  Merriweather, Huelett, those guys.  Remember?

I am enjoying the classic "Guns" 50 years ago issues on their site.  They post the monthly issue of fifty years ago each month.  http://gunsmagazine.com/  "Classic" link way down at bottom.

About Perry, I would much rather see two target lines, revamped turners, and mud control as first priority.  Second priority would be turners at both lines, and maybe covered firing lines. 

One thing missing from NRA proposal of electronic targets is a real justification, or simply said, a goal.  What is the end game here?  More shooters, less cost, less days, more matches, all the above, or what?  And how would electric targets accomplish any such goal item?  And how will the new requirements be met to store, service, RUN the electric system. 

Another set of questions is how would present rules work under electronic system.  Would refires be the same?  Crossfires?  Excessive hits?

Another point from personal experience.  Decisions made by higher-ups usually get them pats on their own backs but the final new operation is placed on the backs of their minions.

Jack H wrote:One thing missing from NRA proposal of electronic targets is a real justification, or simply said, a goal. What is the end game here? More shooters, less cost, less days, more matches, all the above, or what? And how would electric targets accomplish any such goal item? And how will the new requirements be met to store, service, RUN the electric system.

Great questions Jack.  These are the answers I would like to see also.  If the answer is, "the current setup is worn and needs repair so this sounded like a good solution..." then I have to say stick with what we already have and repair the existing equipment.

Rob Kovach wrote:

Jack H wrote:One thing missing from NRA proposal of electronic targets is a real justification, or simply said, a goal. What is the end game here? More shooters, less cost, less days, more matches, all the above, or what? And how would electric targets accomplish any such goal item? And how will the new requirements be met to store, service, RUN the electric system.

Great questions Jack.  These are the answers I would like to see also.  If the answer is, "the current setup is worn and needs repair so this sounded like a good solution..." then I have to say stick with what we already have and repair the existing equipment.

That's what I don't get. Il say it agean... Im a new guy that hasn't shot a match yet, so maybe Im a outsider... but changing from a system that's been in use for ever, is really based on basic mechanical principles, that could be repaired, re fabbed, or even built by any number of people in every area.... and replaceing it with a modern electronic system, that changes the playing field, and that if it does fail... needs to be shipped off to repair, or replace....costing time and money,  and will toss the ranges into the big pool of "that's obsolete, and you need this new updated system" every time something brakes...and we all know it will.