The Wrist: Food for Thought?

I haven’t seen any thing good on fundamentals recently.

I hear people talk about steering the dot into the ten ring. So my question for you is do you know if you are breaking your wrist to do this or are you moving your arm to do this?

If you are breaking your wrist you are setting yourself up for errant shots. Breaking the wrist allows wider forced shots (trigger related) or shots out of the group because you are changing the recoil resistance of your stance. You also lose control of your consistency in a 5 shot string.

When training focus on only allowing movement at the shoulder when aiming and refining (steering) your aim. 

When refining aim, remember it’s important to accept your hold. When steering you may find yourself “picking your shots” and not accepting your hold.

Accepting your hold is conducive to good trigger squeeze!

Jon

Never break down the wrist or elbow!!!

I am an iron sights person but hey I like to learn.

What does "accepting your hold" mean?


Sarah
a.k.a. She Of Limited Knowledge Who Can't Stop Asking Questions

Embrace the wobble.

SaraiEsq wrote:I am an iron sights person but hey I like to learn.

What does "accepting your hold" mean?


Sarah
a.k.a. She Of Limited Knowledge Who Can't Stop Asking Questions

Your hold is never 100% perfect. Your sights will move to an extent (how much is different from person to person) around the center. Accepting your hold is is realizing that in the process of pulling the trigger your sights will move to some extent but if you accept the area that your sights are moving and do not "help" or try to correct the sight alignment during the trigger pull, in aggregate your average shot will be more centered.

Quite timely!

I was just yesterday working on the mystery of why one sustained fire string is awesome...and then later another isn't!

Hmmm!

Thanks!

I think that maintaining your grip while reloading between strings also factors into it.

Along those same lines. I know I break my wrist down as the main reason for missing a good shot, somewhat worse with my .45 than my .22.
How do you remedy and practice to correct this. Being told, don't break your wrist down, isn't enough to correct it.
Is there a specific drill or  other practice modality to overcome this.

I have said “does it look like a 10 and feel like a 10”?
When shooting sustained fire, all 5 shots should look and feel the same. If you are shooting the string and a shot feels different, it’s probably your wrist. 
One thing many forget or never knew, is that as we are attempting to break shots we have a natural tendency to relax. Relaxing can do several things, but in this case we are letting pistol recoil more because of less resistance.
Jon

Pinetree wrote:I think that maintaining your grip while reloading between strings also factors into it.

Has nothing to do with it. Maintaining grip only helps with maintaining grip position on the pistol.
Jon

impalanut wrote:Along those same lines. I know I break my wrist down as the main reason for missing a good shot, somewhat worse with my .45 than my .22.
How do you remedy and practice to correct this. Being told, don't break your wrist down, isn't enough to correct it.
Is there a specific drill or  other practice modality to overcome this.

When dry fire training, focus on firm wrist and keeping it in position while dry firing. Repeat a ton!

Dry firing is way more than just pulling a trigger and focusing on the trigger. You can break down every fundamental process into sub parts and work on that individual part/portion.
Dry firing is underrated by majority of shooters. It's because they don't see how deep you can go into the fundamentals more than just a name; trigger pull, etc.

Breaking everything down is valuable. You will get more from dry fire training than you will from live fire. If you are plateaued and stuck in your scores, it's probably because you shoot more than you dry fire. The red dot tells a story that you can mostly see in dry fire because there is no recoil to disturb what your eye is seeing.

Jon

SaraiEsq wrote:I am an iron sights person but hey I like to learn.

What does "accepting your hold" mean?


Sarah
a.k.a. She Of Limited Knowledge Who Can't Stop Asking Questions

While accepting the wobble is what is often said and is good, the real thing is to define what your wobble truly is.  Most days my wobble is about the ten ring at 25 on the B8.  But it’s only at that level for maybe 10-15 seconds.  Once I settle on the black my wobble starts at about a “9 and a half ring” wobble then settles to the ten ring size after a few seconds.  Somewhere in that settling to “small wobble”  I try to break the shot if it is reasonably centered.  I’ve found that a shot taken with a cdentered and settling or settled wobble will be in the black and most often a ten.  

But this “acceptable wobble area” deteriorates and shots taken after that are wild.  Trying to “dress up” the dot (or sight picture) only leads to poor trigger control.  If the wobble isn centered or never settles, i put the gun down and try again in a few moments. If I don’t, any shots taken are wild.

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Jon Eulette wrote:

Pinetree wrote:I think that maintaining your grip while reloading between strings also factors into it.

Has nothing to do with it. Maintaining grip only helps with maintaining grip position on the pistol.
Jon

 I was told to establish grip pressure at the bench, which is fine for sustained fire. During slow fire is it okay to lessen my grip pressure, then before I lift for the next shot establish it again?
 Stan

Definitely Stan. You would wear yourself out trying to maintain gripping pressure that long.
Jon

Interesting Topic. 

I took a few Zin's clinics and he talked about steering the dot with the trigger. I focused on just this for several weeks and did not see how this would work for me. What I did come away with was a better understanding of my wobble and timing the release of the shot as the dot moves to my preferred sight picture rather than away from my preferred sight picture. I also noticed that if the wrist tension changes the dot moves out of my normal wobble. Trigger tension and wrist tension are quantum entangled.

chopper wrote:

Jon Eulette wrote:

Pinetree wrote:I think that maintaining your grip while reloading between strings also factors into it.

Has nothing to do with it. Maintaining grip only helps with maintaining grip position on the pistol.
Jon

 I was told to establish grip pressure at the bench, which is fine for sustained fire. During slow fire is it okay to lessen my grip pressure, then before I lift for the next shot establish it again?
 Stan

You ideally want to maintain grip position, apply grip pressure then lift for the shot and maintain the grip pressure for the entirety shot process. However it is also worthy to know how to consistently pick up the gun each time, so no need to have a hard fast rule against putting the gun down, just know how to pick it up. Especially helpful if a ceasefire is called.

mhayford45 wrote:Interesting Topic. 

I took a few Zin's clinics and he talked about steering the dot with the trigger. I focused on just this for several weeks and did not see how this would work for me. What I did come away with was a better understanding of my wobble and timing the release of the shot as the dot moves to my preferred sight picture rather than away from my preferred sight picture. I also noticed that if the wrist tension changes the dot moves out of my normal wobble. Trigger tension and wrist tension are quantum entangled.

I personally see trigger pressure as part of the hold process. If you hold with zero trigger pressure the hold is not as stable. I never would steer with my trigger, you are then changing the dynamics of your trigger squeeze; push, pull related off center shots. Also what if your low in the bull? Can’t steer with trigger then can you? Most novice shooters will start picking shots and flipping forced shots.
I strive for constant/same wrist pressure, grip pressure and trigger squeeze. I make my corrections from a shoulder/upper arm centered correction/refinement.
Yes I train for this method. Seems natural and conducive to executing traditional fundamentals.
And yes I believe when a shooter gets really really good, they can bastardize the fundamentals and process to their own liking. Those shooters are few these days. The majority of shooters on this site are below master and I believe need to learn traditional fundamentals and really understand them and execute them before making shots like Tiger Woods used to.
Jon

I find that having a very firm grip on the gun tightens up the wrist. If I shoot with a loose or light grip, I can't help limp-wrisitng it and seeing more extreme movement.

Multiple topics here, accepting the hold is affirmation of Area Aiming and RELEASING the shot within that wobble, not making it go.

Wrist is interesting, there is a natural wrist angle that is set when the grip pressure is established. That may be best choice for a 45 but... From there you have options: International Free and Air force you to droop the wrist otherwise you're pointing at the ceiling. These in turn force changes in waist angle. Lean back, lean forward...there's a lot of it discussed in my book.

i use area aiming for RF. For SF and TF there is so much time that I can focus on where my dot is within my wobble and release the shot when the dot is moving into my preferred sight picture.... I think this is still area aiming with a preference for sub area within the movement.

I affirm consistence firm grip as dogma.

bruce martindale wrote:Wrist is interesting, there is a natural wrist angle that is set when the grip pressure is established. That may be best choice for a 45 but... From there you have options: International Free and Air force you to droop the wrist otherwise you're pointing at the ceiling. These in turn force changes in waist angle. Lean back, lean forward...there's a lot of it discussed in my book.

Bruce, I would argue that grip angle does not alter the waist angle. Waist angle is a choice; lean back or stand erect. I will add that as we fatigue, we have a tendency to lean back more to compensate for the lower back regardless of original lean back or standing erect. The wrist has no idea how I am standing, it only cares about sight alignment.
Jon

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I started " NRA . 22 Rifle Target Shooting at 13, 52 years ago and learned trigger feel/control on a Winchester 52. I've been shooting pistols for 48 years, Bullseye for 5.  I've been lucky enough to have personal Bullseye  training from Bruce Martindale.  My opinion is to practice on Eye to Red Dot - to center X Ring.   In recent years with many hand/wrist/shoulder surgeries on both sides I've been able to keep shooting by maintaining following Red Dot to Center X.   Yes It's slow healthy breathing , mind / body control but most importantly judging distant ( Measurement ) and being able to call your shots. If you really feel it after you pull the trigger and follow thru - you know where that bullet hit when you look in the scope.  I was fortunate to be trained as a a toolmaker / machinist and can judge measurement. Practicing eye measurement is a plus and then checking it with a measuring tool. Even using a scale every day will improve your measurement judgement.  

I normally shoot right handed Bullseye. Bruce helped me go from an average of 240 to 280 for the last 3 years by turning my HS 90 degrees and taking the non wrist action out of play.  Takes some time with body mechanics, but you rely on your eye on  Red Dot to Center X concentration. 

It's a lot of fun trying to compensate for your bodies faults of severe arthritis and old age.

I was pleased  with my 97 Slow Fire last week because I called it. It was at a well lit range which was a plus. Their  auto turning targets weren't working so the used an air horn for Timed and Rapid which threw a wrench. But a 287 overall after working the sawmill all day was satisfying.