In the market for a competitive .38 Special semi automatic

First topic message reminder :

15 years ago I was at a range with my wife and a friend shooting my friend's 9mm cannons.  My wife was shooting my Remington .22 single shot rifle.  The fellow in the next lane was shooting an automatic that was ejecting .38 revolver brass, which I found intriguing having never seen such a thing before.  I started a conversation and after chatting for a while he asked me if I wanted to shoot it.  Of course I said yes.  He had put 4 rounds in the clip when I told him to stop.  I didn't want to use up all his ammo.  He put a new paper target on the clothesline and ran it out about half way.  With my arm length the front rectangular site exactly matched the rear rectangular notch.  I lined them up on the center of the black and pulled the trigger.  The recoil was completely controllable, the sites came straight back down and lined up perfectly and I pulled the trigger again, and again, and again.  He ran the target back and there were 4 holes on the corners of a half inch square centered in the black.  lol  He said, "I thought I put 5 in there".  I wish he had.  We chatted some more and he gave me some tips if I ever wanted to shoot competitively, which I do now.

I can't remember the manufacturer of the pistol.  I seem to remember it was two words, like Charter Arms, but I always thought Charter Arms made junk (I could be very wrong about that).  It wasn't a Smith & Wesson 52, -1, -2.  And it wasn't a Colt.  Does anyone have any idea what I had in my hands?  The fellow seemed really pleased with himself when he said he paid $750 for it in the box some years before.  I would like one just like it.

Trying to find anything on the web is hopeless these days.  I went to a local gun shop, but they were too busy selling plastic pistols and assault rifles to pay me much mind.  The man I talked to behind the counter had never heard of a .38 Special semi auto.  So, I looked around for a forum that didn't seem to be too populated by idiots and here I am.  Can anyone help me?

38 special performs fantastic in my personal 1911’s and the ones I build. Factory Federal been excellent ammunition and will hold X ring. Guns I’ve built have been tested by customers with factory and reloaded HBWC and have provided X ring groups. 38 special shoots great from a great pistol. I listen to so much mumbo jumbo on this forum about how unforgiving it is to shoot and reload. Hogwash! It’s not rocket science. If you’re not shooting 10’s either your gun needs work, your ammunition needs work or you need to learn how to pull the trigger. It’s that simple. Follow through is a myth. It’s been perpetuated by someone needing an excuse for bad shots. God forbid anybody admits to yanking the trigger. The only disadvantage a 38 has compared to the 45 is bullet diameter. Diameter usually wins matches. All the legal gun calibers for Center Fire aggregate will shoot a 900 from a rest. We need to focus on what’s really important; the trigger puller.
Jon

Bingo Jon. Question about bullets for the 38 Special 1911s, I have a bunch of Star hbwc. But was wondering if my HG 50 wadcutters would work in your 1911 38 special also.
Stan

In my experience Stan, the HG 50 (solids) needs to be correct diameter to shoot well. 25 yds was easy, but 50 yds I chased my tail a lot. I like building and shooting guns more than I like reloading and casting/sizing bullets. So the hbwc are my cheaters way of doing more of what I like. FC60 knows much better than I about cast lead performance. 
Jon

Wobbley, I wondered the same thing about the aerodynamics for a flat nosed projectile.

Wadcutter newbie question:  When I look at dimensioned drawings for .38 Special ammo it looks like the full wadcutter brass is the same length as a round nose or semi wadcutter revolver round.  Does that mean there is less volume inside the brass for powder because more of the volume is taken by the bullet, with a subsequent lighter load?

The lighter loads are designed to keep the recoil down and because the bullets do I take up a lot of space in the assembled round. That said, one of the loads my Python loved was 3.5 Unique behind a Speer HBWC. Way out of the normal for wadcutter ammo perhaps but it did shoot well.

Jon Eulette wrote:In my experience Stan, the HG 50 (solids) needs to be correct diameter to shoot well. 25 yds was easy, but 50 yds I chased my tail a lot. I like building and shooting guns more than I like reloading and casting/sizing bullets. So the hbwc are my cheaters way of doing more of what I like. FC60 knows much better than I about cast lead performance. 
Jon

  You're correct Jon diameter is very important, especially with a solid bullet, also hardness. Did you have trouble with feeding since I always hear that model 52 won't function unless the bullet is seated completely flush with the case mouth.
Stan

Stan, I’m 99.9% 1911 38 special shooter. I’ve shot flush seated roll crimped hbwc in 52 with no issues.

Jon Eulette wrote:Stan, I’m 99.9% 1911 38 special shooter. I’ve shot flush seated roll crimped hbwc in 52 with no issues.

 I assume that the 1911 pistol would be more forgiving than the 52 with the HG50 nose proud, and the shoulder flush with case mouth and roll crimped. 
Stan

Way back when, Gil Hebard shot some H&G #50 Wadcutters in a 52. He found that the bullets had to be seated BELOW flush, the best bullet diameter was .356 and the best powder was DuPont P5066… now P5066 was a medium-fast powder in the N320 or W231 range. But the loads only averaged 3 inches, Compared to 2.5 inches with factory wadcutter ammo.

I have some machine and hand cast equivalents and I’m certainly gonna try them with 2,8 Bullseye. I’ll report back.

I have a couple pounds of P5066. Excellent in 45. Crazy stuff will rust my recoil spring! Very bizarre.
Jon

I'm playing around with my SWC load in my 52-2.  I cut the .38 Special brass back to 38 Super length (.900), then load the 133gr Lyman 358480 SWC bullet.  Fits the magazine just fine.   I call it the .38 Special Kurz.

Don

Jon, you say diameter wins matches.  Is that because a bigger hole will touch the black when a smaller one at the same center point does not?

Yes. I’ve known shooters averaging 2660+ that had their average drop when they shot .38 for CF. Always pays to know how to shoot the 45 when score is involved.
Jon

Flat nose... they deliberately make space capsules that way... for a very different reason... so they don't melt ...

And, yeah, they're a guided projectile. But there's also a CG factor. Under deceleration the heavy end wants to lead... which is what the hollow base helps with ???

Mark, I live in Alameda CA and shoot at the range in San Leandro. We have a once a month informal bullseye league that shoots on the 3rd Sunday morning once a month.  The league is called the 600x league  http://www.600xleague.org/ we shoot in the morning and then have pizza and shoot the breeze. For the league we shoot .22 and air pistol but I also shoot a S&W 52-1 that shoots 38 special wadcutters.  Check it out if you are interested.

Jon Eulette wrote:Yes. I’ve known shooters averaging 2660+ that had their average drop when they shot .38 for CF. Always pays to know how to shoot the 45 when score is involved.
Jon

I hate when that happens! 

Wes, I will have to think about the heavy end wanting to lead under deceleration.  The hollow base would help with that, in addition to expanding into the grooves from combustion pressure, as I read.  I am all about Center of Mass (what you call CG), so your argument resonates with me.

Troy, thank you so much for the invite!  San Leandro just isn't that far from me, and the range there is one I was looking at as a possible place to shoot.  Do I just show up and say TroyStanton invited me?  I don't want to intrude.

lol, I've always thought if the whole thing isn't in the black it's a miss.

Dynamic projectile stability one big factor is the “overturning moment” which is the relationship of the center of pressure and the center of mass. The aerodynamics (and C.P.) are dependent on the shape and velocity. A hollow base moves the CG forward which reduces the overturning moment. A flat nosed slug seems to buffet more as the bullet precesses which seems to be reduced with a small protrusion (button nose). Which is why the H&G #50 was more popular than the DEWC (flying beer keg).

'Center of Pressure', why arrows and rockets have fins.

I did model rockets as a kid.  I seem to remember the center of mass had to be ahead of the center of pressure for stability.  I was shooting rockets out of a 2 1/2 inch cardboard tube like a bazooka.  I had to put lead shot in the balsa nosecones for them to be stable.

If the force of air resistance on the front of the bullet acts like a gravitational force, it would want the heavy end of the bullet to the rear, not the front.

I determined the center of pressure by projecting the shape of the rocket onto a flat sheet of cardboard, cut it out, and saw where it balanced on a knife edge.  The center of mass, or center of gravity, was determined by balancing the rocket itself on a knife edge.

MarkThomas wrote:
If the force of air resistance on the front of the bullet acts like a gravitational force, it would want the heavy end of the bullet to the rear, not the front.

I've seen some people suggest that is why a hollow point bullet tends to be the most accurate. More weight to the rear.

MarkThomas wrote:I did model rockets as a kid.  I seem to remember the center of mass had to be ahead of the center of pressure for stability.  I was shooting rockets out of a 2 1/2 inch cardboard tube like a bazooka.  I had to put lead shot in the balsa nosecones for them to be stable.

If the force of air resistance on the front of the bullet acts like a gravitational force, it would want the heavy end of the bullet to the rear, not the front.

For aerodynamically (fin) stabilized things like rockets bombs and mortars, the Cp moves aft pretty quickly with even a small fin. Bullets are spin stabilized and because of the spin, the forward Cp induces a “nutation” or wobble in the projectile. If the overturning moment is small, then the spin has a tendency to “forcibly” average out the deviation. That is if the spin is correct for the condition. A classic example is a spiral on a thrown football.

I remember watching a show about launching bowling balls on rockets. Most had the ball in he middle of the fuselage (?) between a nose and tail section. The best result, highest altitude, was with a relatively short body and the ball sitting on top.

I was thinking, how can that possibly be stable?

Just needs enough fin area.

Wes, the center of mass needs to be ahead of the center of pressure so it doesn't want to tumble.

Wobbley, the football example has always confused me a little.  From conservation of angular momentum the football would want to fly nose up in order to keep the angular momentum vector unchanged, but the spin axis (angular momentum vector direction) stays parallel to the velocity vector.  There is more going on than conservation of angular momentum, what with the football passing through a fluid (air).  If one threw a football in a vacuum under the influence of gravity, would it fly with the nose up to conserve angular momentum?