90 degree position to targets for

Better Recoil recovery in Rapid Fire? How many have considered doing this? If you are facing the target line, heavy recoil will twist your body (shoulders) away from the target. If you’re at 90 degrees, the gun, your arm, and shoulders are all in line and could aid better recovery. 

I say could, not will. What are your thoughts?

I usually set up with NPA Natural Point of Aim coming at about 45 degrees either way.

This is my usual stance, almost 90 degrees, even when I shoot 22 or air pistol. But sometimes it just doesn't work, my shots go to the left, so I have to change my stance, and sometimes I end up almost facing the target. Every day is different.

As long as my shoulder and elbow on shooting arm aren't in pain, I'm perpendicular to the target all the time, not only for TF/RF.  Sometimes even more then that because of elbow hyperextension.  When bicipital tendonitis is aggravated, ufff..., - that pushes me to 45 degrees or even less.

AP

I put this up there because I find that l myself have two distinct NPA positions,  my usual, and the 90 degree one. I just don’t think about it, it happens or it doesn’t.

Same for stability after the lift. When on command, either it’s good or it isn’t and l have limited time to adjust it and get it right. Little things, weight split between feet, head position, arm, shoulder, waist angles. That is why it’s important for me one, to setup before commands start so I can lift clean to target with eyes closed, and two, to lift at Ready on the Right. So many ignore that but it gives time to settle and adjust. For gun doen sports like 22 EIC or ISSF Standard pistol, all you do is come back down at Attention

Bruce is correct, your natural point of aim is what is rewired. I you over rotate, after recoil your body will return to the natural pint of aim then you have to adjust to align sights with target In addition over rotation adds to strain so you will tire quickly. As Bruce stated close your eyes, point the gun at target without strain right or left on the arm, open eyes and pivot on right foot for right handed shooters by moving the left until target is at you natural point of aim.

First off you need to have the proprioception to find your NPA initially (which is hard enough) and as it drifts from your muscles warming up and then tiring (which is harder).  When you are excited the ability to sense this disappears.

Secondly you need the coordination to adjust accordingly, which isn't hard as long as you have the above in hand but impossible if you don't.

Alternatively; if I just do what feels comfortable and lines me up with the target without thinking about it too much, that usually works as good as anything.

If we look historically at the best shooters, no one shot like this. A.A. Yur Yev’s book overhead photos of top Russian shooters do not reflect this either.
It’s a forced unnatural position. Extreme head twist and muscles not naturally evened out in tension; chest/back and arm.
I worked at 29 Palms Marine Corps Base as civil/structural engineer from 09-16. Every year I’d work with the Marines training for division matches at Pendleton. Many new shooters. I would start with them after they had two weeks of initial training and familiarization with M9. There would always be someone trying the full 90 position. I would correct their stance and they would immediately start improving.
It’s natural as we shoot to try and relax as we shoot. If you relax in the 90 position you will have extreme movement to left for right handed shooters.
I would only shoot from this position if a physical problem required it.
No reason to reinvent the wheel. I can’t think of one 2600+ shooter who has used this position.
Don’t waste your time……
Jon

Jon, I used to blade 90 degrees,but can't anymore because it knots my neck and trapezius muscles. I also used to dig my chin into my arm and really get a better control on recoil, but can't for the same reason.
 So now I now end up more between 45 than 90, probably like about 70 is where it's comfortable with my head more towards my arm for NPA. This seems to strengthen my wrist, elbow, and shoulder and keep recoil straight back. It feels good, I just started this last month and I'll see if it helps out for the next few months this summer. 
 Maybe there is hope for my shoulder muscles and I can concentrate more on the shooting instead of the soreness and fatigue halfway through the CF match. 
 Any other ideas are always a help to me. Thanks
Stan

Stan,

Some guys dig in their chin and others do not. Nothing wrong with either, just be consistent. Recoil control starts at the feet and ends at the hand. Nothing magic about it. Just be consistent. That's why I say "does it look like a 10" and "does it feel like a 10"? It can look like a 10, but definitely not be a 10. You should see that in your recoil and recovery. Many try to force position during recoil; firmer stance or lean into it more. I don't think its necessary. Be rigid/firm in stance and let it recoil. Getting back on trigger during recoil is the key, not trying to reduce the recoil. Obviously practice practice practice.
Learn to shoot 5 good shots no time limit. Increase the speed a little at a time. Eventually should be shooting RF in about 9 seconds.
Key to sustained fire is breaking an excellent first shot, shots 2-5 follow easily. Get behind on the first shot and it all goes to hell especially in lower classifications. Don't make TF too pretty and don't rush RF.
Jon

I read somewhere, that John Zurek does closed fist push-ups to strengthen his arm muscles to help in recoil. Dunno if it’s true, but to aid MY recoil control effort, I’ve started to do 10 push-ups per day but I’m using “handles” to mitigate wrist hyperextension issues.

I'm one of those that made it to HM with a 90 degree stance.  Jason Meidinger (USMC) made it to National Champion with an over-extended stance (90+).

(Hmm, I'm now using more of a 45 degree stance and my scores are considerably lower.  Maybe it's not the lack of training. . . %^)

90 degrees is not as easy as just doing it and it causes all kinds of strain, as Jon mentioned.  It may be easier to use for younger shooters, but the older we get, the more training it takes.

Most importantly, as Jon stated, you need to be consistent.  This means for the entire match. I suggest finding "your" one best stance for natural area of aim and using it for all stages.  I also suggest checking and adjusting (if necessary) each time you approach the bench.

Ed, was there a reason you chose 90 degrees?  Did it just seem the most natural or comfortable at the time?  Or did you experiment along the way.

I really appreciate your posts, by the way.

Thanks

Hey Rod,

I thought, as Bruce queried in the OP, that being in line gave me better stability, and there appeared to be a natural point at that stance.  Additionally, with my head turned that far, my eye seemed more in line with my arm, allowing the sights (and gun) to be more in line with my arm.

Note that Jason Meidinger's stance was extended beyond that point, so as to have a skeletal/muscle wall which he was against in his stance.  He was "locked" against that wall.

Wobbley wrote:I read somewhere, that John Zurek does closed fist push-ups to strengthen his arm muscles to help in recoil.  Dunno if it’s true, but to aid MY recoil control effort, I’ve started to do 10 push-ups per day but I’m using “handles” to mitigate wrist hyperextension issues.

No, he doesn't, at least nowadays.  He had wrist broken few years ago.  BTW - his stance is 90 degrees to the target.  It would be better to use light to medium heavy dumb bells (8-15 lbs) for arm strengthening, and heavier (25-40 lbs) and bench for shoulders, - IMO.  No push ups - too much load on wrists, and promotes wrist flexibility, exactly opposite what is needed.

AP

I started BE at around 45 degrees, and as I got better I progressed more "bladed" toward 90 degrees.  I'm not quite there and don't expect I'll ever get to 90... I'd say about 85.  But it's a good firm comfortable position for me (hips, feet, arms, chin, and eyeball all in a natural position).

It seems that BE shooting position angles could vary about as drastically as human bodies.