4 Gun Match - Future Direction
+8
shanneba
cdrt
SteveT
chiz1180
targetbarb
SingleActionAndrew
Wobbley
RoyDean
12 posters
4 Gun Match - Future Direction
I guess that the concept of a 4 Gun Match was initiated at Cardinal (folks with more historical knowledge than I will now chime in and obfuscate!).
I like that format. Makes perfect sense to me.
It would make the "Ohio Triple Crown" more meaningful if both Canton and Perry were to follow roughly the same format (I do understand that P100 + NTI are prestigious and important events at Perry). No doubt Hendo and Dane are working on that
It would be even better still if the NRA were to adopt a similar approach at Atterbury (but there are a few fossils out there who do not seem to want to see any change or forward looking direction).
Bullseye at club level seems to be dying - that is a pity - if the "Summer Nationals Tour" were able to demonstrate some cohensive new direction possibly that might stimulate some support - rather than the constant bickering and finger pointing from the fossils.
Just sayin!
I like that format. Makes perfect sense to me.
It would make the "Ohio Triple Crown" more meaningful if both Canton and Perry were to follow roughly the same format (I do understand that P100 + NTI are prestigious and important events at Perry). No doubt Hendo and Dane are working on that
It would be even better still if the NRA were to adopt a similar approach at Atterbury (but there are a few fossils out there who do not seem to want to see any change or forward looking direction).
Bullseye at club level seems to be dying - that is a pity - if the "Summer Nationals Tour" were able to demonstrate some cohensive new direction possibly that might stimulate some support - rather than the constant bickering and finger pointing from the fossils.
Just sayin!
RoyDean- Posts : 980
Join date : 2021-03-31
Age : 68
Location : Oregon
Re: 4 Gun Match - Future Direction
4 gun? I know 3 gun is 22, CF and 45… what is the 4th gun?
Wobbley- Admin
- Posts : 4776
Join date : 2015-02-13
Re: 4 Gun Match - Future Direction
I think 4th gun should be one of those vodka bottles shaped like a Thompson. If it's CMP SR vs NRA DR we could bring just 2 guns (22 and a 45 revolver) and then have room for TWO bottles!
SingleActionAndrew- Admin
- Posts : 670
Join date : 2019-11-19
Location : IL, USA
Orion likes this post
Re: 4 Gun Match - Future Direction
Wobbley, pay attention!
4th gun is Service Pistol.
4th gun is Service Pistol.
RoyDean- Posts : 980
Join date : 2021-03-31
Age : 68
Location : Oregon
Re: 4 Gun Match - Future Direction
I shot the As-Issued Pistol match at Camp Perry, 40 shots total at 25 yards on B-8 target. All standing, 10 shots one or 2 handed in 5 min, 10 shots left hand only in 5 min, 10 shots right hand only in 5 min, 10 shots one or 2 handed in 70 seconds. It was a ton of fun; we have a SA 1911 MilSpec that I used for this match. [See in our house - there are my guns and then there are our guns. ] The MilSpec 45 is one of "our" guns.RoyDean wrote:Wobbley, pay attention!
4th gun is Service Pistol.
targetbarb- Posts : 64
Join date : 2023-05-26
Location : SoCal
RoyDean likes this post
Re: 4 Gun Match - Future Direction
Roy,
I believe the 4 gun format is how interservice works. Unfortunately many skip the educational opportunities of shooting service pistol.
I believe the 4 gun format is how interservice works. Unfortunately many skip the educational opportunities of shooting service pistol.
chiz1180- Posts : 1487
Join date : 2019-05-29
Location : Ohio
Sc0 and RoyDean like this post
Re: 4 Gun Match - Future Direction
The 4 gun concept isn't new, I remember a few places shooting 4 900's in a match over the years.
I love service pistol, but four 900's in a day would be a really long day so it is limited to multi-day matches.
I love service pistol, but four 900's in a day would be a really long day so it is limited to multi-day matches.
RoyDean likes this post
Re: 4 Gun Match - Future Direction
SteveT, fair comment, I agree that a full 3,600 is too much for a one day event. But it would be nice if the 4 gun is adopted at Canton and Atterbury.
RoyDean- Posts : 980
Join date : 2021-03-31
Age : 68
Location : Oregon
Re: 4 Gun Match - Future Direction
I shoot my SP for CF and 45, so no worries for me. But do most people have a SP and want to shoot a SP 900?
Also Roy, it was a pleasure to get to shake hands at Atterbury. I apologize I had to run - it was team match time. I look forward to meeting again and spending time together talking bullseye.
Also Roy, it was a pleasure to get to shake hands at Atterbury. I apologize I had to run - it was team match time. I look forward to meeting again and spending time together talking bullseye.
SingleActionAndrew- Admin
- Posts : 670
Join date : 2019-11-19
Location : IL, USA
Re: 4 Gun Match - Future Direction
Just curious, for the NRA to adopt a four gun match, would they have to revise the rule book, to once again, include their definition of a service pistol? They dropped it a number of year's ago. Or would they use the CMP's rather nebulous definition and ammo requirements.
cdrt- Posts : 843
Join date : 2016-04-12
Location : Amarillo, Texas
Re: 4 Gun Match - Future Direction
Happens that the NRA sent me another Outdoor PP Classification Card - wrong address and wrong info on the card - so I went to the NRA Competition site to check my profile. Then realised that all of my previous match scores are recorded and noticed that for Atterbury (2023 and previous years) the score is for a 3,600.
I then downloaded the match report - see attached - and in fact the NRA already considers Atterbury a 3,600 match.
Now I'm really confused!!
I then downloaded the match report - see attached - and in fact the NRA already considers Atterbury a 3,600 match.
Now I'm really confused!!
RoyDean- Posts : 980
Join date : 2021-03-31
Age : 68
Location : Oregon
Re: 4 Gun Match - Future Direction
And no one hit the X ring!
The National Championships include the Preliminary Match.
The National Championships include the Preliminary Match.
shanneba- Posts : 341
Join date : 2021-10-16
Age : 68
Location : Indiana
SaraiEsq likes this post
Re: 4 Gun Match - Future Direction
Never believe all you read on the I-net..shanneba wrote:And no one hit the X ring!
The National Championships include the Preliminary Match.
james r chapman- Admin
- Posts : 6359
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 75
Location : HELL, Michigan
Re: 4 Gun Match - Future Direction
Somewhat off topic, but I haven’t seen any change in Service Pistol scores since the change to any safe ammo. It actually is funny, I have seen people shoot jacketed long line and lead short line for a 2700 then shoot straight lead for service. I also have not seen anyone shoot 38wadcutter for service either…cdrt wrote:Just curious, for the NRA to adopt a four gun match, would they have to revise the rule book, to once again, include their definition of a service pistol? They dropped it a number of year's ago. Or would they use the CMP's rather nebulous definition and ammo requirements.
Back to the topic on hand. Regardless of the number of aggregate points, a match aggregate with both open sights and metallic sights is and interesting metric to try and improve.
chiz1180- Posts : 1487
Join date : 2019-05-29
Location : Ohio
Chase Turner likes this post
Re: 4 Gun Match - Future Direction
chiz1180 wrote:Somewhat off topic, but I haven’t seen any change in Service Pistol scores since the change to any safe ammo. It actually is funny, I have seen people shoot jacketed long line and lead short line for a 2700 then shoot straight lead for service. I also have not seen anyone shoot 38wadcutter for service either…cdrt wrote:Just curious, for the NRA to adopt a four gun match, would they have to revise the rule book, to once again, include their definition of a service pistol? They dropped it a number of year's ago. Or would they use the CMP's rather nebulous definition and ammo requirements.
Back to the topic on hand. Regardless of the number of aggregate points, a match aggregate with both open sights and metallic sights is and interesting metric to try and improve.
Your observation, which is of fact (and not opinion), surely should neuter the complaints of
Wake me up when someone shoots a 300 with "cheater" ammo. I'll shake their hand as a champion, because that is what they will be.
-Chase
Chase Turner- Posts : 385
Join date : 2019-11-15
chiz1180 likes this post
Re: 4 Gun Match - Future Direction
Chase, I totally agree. The shooters that train....win.
Hard to get service rifle legs in WA due to a great Jr. program.
Hard to get service rifle legs in WA due to a great Jr. program.
Wes Lorenz- Posts : 443
Join date : 2011-06-27
Location : Washington
4th Corner Traveler likes this post
Re: 4 Gun Match - Future Direction
RoyDean wrote:Happens that the NRA sent me another Outdoor PP Classification Card - wrong address and wrong info on the card - so I went to the NRA Competition site to check my profile. Then realised that all of my previous match scores are recorded and noticed that for Atterbury (2023 and previous years) the score is for a 3,600.
I then downloaded the match report - see attached - and in fact the NRA already considers Atterbury a 3,600 match.
Now I'm really confused!!
I just realized when I saw this that one could become classified just by shooting all of Atterbury (Prelim/.22/CF/.45). Or, should one do well, qualify for a change in classification just by shooting all of Atterbury -- since NRA classification is based on the last 360 shots. (I think that's the way the rules read.)
It was just kinda cool to consider, as I am firmly in the Marksman category at present. :-)
SaraiEsq- Posts : 172
Join date : 2022-09-25
Re: 4 Gun Match - Future Direction
Well spotted Sara!
If you have not got one already, get one of the little NRA Booklets to record your scores and monitor your progress. Every club should offer them to new shooters, sadly many do not!
If you have not got one already, get one of the little NRA Booklets to record your scores and monitor your progress. Every club should offer them to new shooters, sadly many do not!
RoyDean- Posts : 980
Join date : 2021-03-31
Age : 68
Location : Oregon
SaraiEsq likes this post
Re: 4 Gun Match - Future Direction
Sara, if you can’t get a hold of one of the booklets and you want one let me know, I will look at my club to see if we still have some.RoyDean wrote:Well spotted Sara!
If you have not got one already, get one of the little NRA Booklets to record your scores and monitor your progress. Every club should offer them to new shooters, sadly many do not!
Alternatively a Rite in the Rain No. 773 is a good size to record match scores and relevant happenings, key observations, relevant alibi information (feeding alibi with mag 2), ect. I use one to record my match score as well as another one my reloading information (primer lot, powder charge, bullet, ect.) Nice thing is they are waterproof in case you spill water/coffee on it (yep done that once or twice) or get caught in in-climate weather.
chiz1180- Posts : 1487
Join date : 2019-05-29
Location : Ohio
SaraiEsq likes this post
Re: 4 Gun Match - Future Direction
Pretty sure the NRA stopped printing the Temporary Score Books several years ago. The Materials Center website is down right now, so I can't check, but I think with your shooting record available online, that's the reason they stopped printing them. I have one copy left, that I scanned for one of our shooters.
cdrt- Posts : 843
Join date : 2016-04-12
Location : Amarillo, Texas
SaraiEsq likes this post
Re: 4 Gun Match - Future Direction
Thanks, guys!
I have a journal that I record matches and practice notes in. I did pick up a champion's choice score book recently which wasn't formatted the way I expected; currently I am using it to record my scores for a weekly indoor league and it seems to work well.
I also have an Excel spreadsheet for each match where I analyze ... stuff.
With respect to a four-gun format, it could be set up as two 1800 days, right? A single relay would easily be done in a morning (shooting both 900s), while multiple relays would stretch into the afternoon. If there is no break between matches, the two days could look like this: (M-match, R-relay)
Morning: M1R1, M1R2
Afternoon: M2R1, M2R2
Morning: M3R2, M3R1
Afternoon: M4R2, M4R1
I would probably continue to shoot it as a .22 only match.
One possible argument against a four-gun format would be the additional cost in terms of another pistol. I realize lots of folks might shoot CF/.45/SP with the same pistol (right?) but I am thinking also in terms of perception. Since the match "requires" four pistols, it is just that much more "out of reach" for the new shooter.
Now it's time for bed; local 2700 in the a.m.
I have a journal that I record matches and practice notes in. I did pick up a champion's choice score book recently which wasn't formatted the way I expected; currently I am using it to record my scores for a weekly indoor league and it seems to work well.
I also have an Excel spreadsheet for each match where I analyze ... stuff.
With respect to a four-gun format, it could be set up as two 1800 days, right? A single relay would easily be done in a morning (shooting both 900s), while multiple relays would stretch into the afternoon. If there is no break between matches, the two days could look like this: (M-match, R-relay)
Morning: M1R1, M1R2
Afternoon: M2R1, M2R2
Morning: M3R2, M3R1
Afternoon: M4R2, M4R1
I would probably continue to shoot it as a .22 only match.
One possible argument against a four-gun format would be the additional cost in terms of another pistol. I realize lots of folks might shoot CF/.45/SP with the same pistol (right?) but I am thinking also in terms of perception. Since the match "requires" four pistols, it is just that much more "out of reach" for the new shooter.
Now it's time for bed; local 2700 in the a.m.
SaraiEsq- Posts : 172
Join date : 2022-09-25
Re: 4 Gun Match - Future Direction
Sara,
Additional 4gun format in theory gives people good reason to shoot service pistol. I would argue a service pistol is a more affordable entry to CF than a wadgun, as you do not need an optic. You can also have a gun set up such that you can remove the optic for service pistol. So you still could shoot it with 2 guns.
Depending on what other matches (EICs, DR, Prelims, ect.) you could do 2x900s a day but it also depends on participation and range size. I can run an 1800 with 12 people in about 3.5-4 hours, add more people to the mix more alibis, more scoring disputes, ect. One 900 in a day is nice as it allows a good rest period.
Additional 4gun format in theory gives people good reason to shoot service pistol. I would argue a service pistol is a more affordable entry to CF than a wadgun, as you do not need an optic. You can also have a gun set up such that you can remove the optic for service pistol. So you still could shoot it with 2 guns.
Depending on what other matches (EICs, DR, Prelims, ect.) you could do 2x900s a day but it also depends on participation and range size. I can run an 1800 with 12 people in about 3.5-4 hours, add more people to the mix more alibis, more scoring disputes, ect. One 900 in a day is nice as it allows a good rest period.
chiz1180- Posts : 1487
Join date : 2019-05-29
Location : Ohio
SaraiEsq likes this post
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