Practical BE

Looks like IDF police train: one handed, sight alignment, careful trigger.  Hope ours do too

Admin removed. not bullseye related.

IDF do weird stuff, that some American trainers claim will get you killed.  It works for them and their adversaries.  But combat shooting is a horse of another color.

I am definitely biased, but I think bullseye / international pistol helps all pistol and rifle disciplines. The one-handed, unsupported position punishes poor trigger pull so you have to learn to pull the trigger smoothly to keep them on the paper. As militaries have moved away from conscription and mass fire infantry and towards more precision fire and door-to-door fighting I can see the benefit.

I am one who believes that learning the fundamentals of marksmanship, especially trigger control, can be a useful part of an overall training program for learning self-defense, police and military pistol training. It is a learn how to crawl before you walk and run idea. That being said, someone who only has experience in bullseye pistol shooting, is extremely limited when it comes to self-defense.

BE Mike wrote:someone who only has experience in bullseye pistol shooting, is extremely limited when it comes to self-defense.

Hey! I am extremely capable of self defense as long as the bad guy stands still for 10 seconds and doesn't shoot back.

SteveT wrote:I am definitely biased, but I think bullseye / international pistol helps all pistol and rifle disciplines. The one-handed, unsupported position punishes poor trigger pull so you have to learn to pull the trigger smoothly to keep them on the paper. As militaries have moved away from conscription and mass fire infantry and towards more precision fire and door-to-door fighting I can see the benefit.

I agree - BE training has helped my rifle shooting noticeably.  On our small ranch / vineyard I'm in charge of pest control - mainly ground squirrels.  Besides trapping I use a very accurate .22 PCP air rifle with a Leupold scope.  It is good to about 70 yards, quiet, and the pellets rapidly lose energy beyond that range.

I believe accuracy should be taught before any tacticool mag dump exercises. In target shooting, hunting, or defensive use only hits count.

My shooting buddies laugh while scoring our pistol targets when several guys cut loose at the AR range next door. They shoot at metal targets 40 to 100 yards using scoped rifles. The group will rip off 80 - 100 rounds in 10 to 15 seconds. We laugh at only hearing six or eight dings out of the barrage.

I truly believe that the worst marksman on this forum is a better shot than 99.5 percent of the American population, just from knowing the fundamentals.

Fast is fun, hits are crucial regardless of the activity.

Darrell

Interesting topic for discussion. Target vs Combat and so on.

In general, of course, SAFETY has to take first position, then IMO a gloss over of all the fundamentals.
The critically important things is to have the gun pointed at target area, and have it fire without altering that goal. Therefor aim and trigger are the only things critically important. All other fundamentals support the aiming process and the firing (trigger) process. Next most important is grip.

Sights whether they be more precise, or of a more desired shape, material, optic make the aiming process easier or better for the application intended. I think aiming is like pointing, sights and optics make the point more defined or precise. Sights are an aid to aiming.  Precise target sights are almost useless in close quarter combat shooting, and very course reflective sights may be near useless for a precision shot. Aiming/pointing is critical the type of sights again are an aid to that process. One should have the proper tool for task.

Trigger. If the gun cannot be fired without disturbing the intended aiming area, then the aiming became neutralized or erased. The trigger is the eraser.

Grips, grip panels, stocks or whatever help one get a more desirable feel of the gun and trigger finger placement. When shooting a very heavy recoiling gun, then control and comfort may be quite critical in whether one can hit anything at all. Sever flinching is never good, and control is important because one can induce a malfunction in most CF semi-auto pistols without a firm enough grip. Of course, if the grips afford the persons ability to pull/press trigger in a manner which does not disturb the aiming or sighting, that is a huge advancement toward a more precise shot. I can shoot a 1911 or some revolvers with no grips at all. They are not critical. They are an aid.

So far, no mention of other remaining fundamentals. They are there to support the critical ones, they are not critical. They become increasingly more important as the distance or precision increase, but they are aids to make the aiming/sighting better or easier or faster or more stable or better for follow up shots. Therefore, I believe we should spend much more time of teaching the trigger press than what is typically done. Most of us know, or will soon learn that poor "triggernometry" is our biggest problem.

Combat. At extreme close shooting of 18x24" target of say 20 ft or less, then grip may be the most important. Certainly breathing, stance/position and sights are relatively unimportant, if grip was proper and firm. Trigger is always important, but much less important at 20 ft or less.  Given a generous aiming area and close distance, if grip is proper and firm enough, one can pull the trigger with a jackhammer and the shot will be good enough.

Target. Moving to a smaller aiming area or greater distance, then the remaining fundamentals come into play at varying degrees of criticality.

In closing I think Rob Leatham has it right. We spend way to much time on fundamentals which are not so fundamental, and way too little time on trigger control. Trigger control always applies. I don't believe that can be said of other fundamentals of shooting. Teach the combat shooter and the precision shooter alike about trigger control. We would all be better off.

There’s “target shooting” and “combat shooting”.  Target shooting is either “bullseye-precision” or “combat STYLE” shooting.  True “combat” shooting is seldom done (thankfully) but, as said by Bill Jordan, there’s “No Second Place Winner”.  There’s also no rules except 1. Don’t shoot the innocents.  Target shooting has a different emphasis, even “combat style” target shooting.

Wobbley wrote:There’s “target shooting” and “combat shooting”.  Target shooting is either “bullseye-precision” or “combat STYLE” shooting.  True “combat” shooting is seldom done (thankfully) but, as said by Bill Jordan, there’s “No Second Place Winner”.  There’s also no rules except 1. Don’t shoot the innocents.  Target shooting has a different emphasis, even “combat style” target shooting.

Of course, yet one trains for combat shooting, with combat style target shooting. Learning to shoot effectively, very quickly, typically at close distance and often from a holster is learned through training on a range. Tactics, concealment and survival are also simulated as much as possible on ranges. The actual threat is not present, yet the stress is very much real. Training and competition through fear of failure do help prepare, but no true substitute, one for how they "may" act or react in a real life threating situation.

There are also some “scars” created in “Combat style” target shooting that can get you killed too.  And they are sometimes glaring.  At one training event there was supposed to be an “advance to contact” then a “peel away break contact”.  But when the trainer yelled “contact front” to start the fireworks, one guy stood there like a Statue of Liberty, pounding a target in front of him with a mag and a half!  Never took cover, never shifted focus, nothing.  When I was trained the initial reaction was to get down and find cover.  THEN start returning fire all over the target area not just the obvious.  No reloading behind cover, standing like a doofus, going for total speed in mag changes, discarding mags, wasting ammo, will get you killed or severely wounded.  There goes the mission.

At 65 I am shooting IDPA and USPSA, #1 It's fun! gets me out of the house with like minded people, new friends, lunch, Like a dog I need socialisation, with that being said. I am learning a great many things, Trigger control, keeping my finger off the trigger! Target acquisition, 0 down score is a hit in an 6 inch circle and head shots are a 4 inch. and you have targets where your forced to take a head shot, many complain about some of the rules, but that forces you to think about what your doing, like how to use cover. YES! we have the guys that want to be winners, and they shoot guns  that have a mag capacity of 17-21 rounds and will put extra rounds in a target just to get a better score. and they are FAST! Me, I probably look like Herman Munster with a gun but I shoot 'single stack" and hardly anyone else does . So I am always in the top 3 or so in my division.  I am 20 years sober for a very good reason, I have done some very sketchy stuff in my life, But have never felt the need to carry a gun. Nowadays I feel it's almost necessary and IF the WHEN happens I want to have a reasonable chance of surviving, so I train. Like someone said above, I don't know how many average gun owners can wade through a 24 round target course in 27 seconds with 2 rounds center mass and 8 inch falling steels at 17 yards. I can!

Back in the days before shooting schools were a big-money industry, the old-timers wrote books on combat shooting.  And almost to a man, they advised starting with the precision disciplines.  Bullseye is the ballet of pistol shooting - it lays a rock-solid foundation of good technique, from which all else can be built.