Question: Scoping your slow fire shots

by ponzio Thu Jan 25, 2024 1:56 pm

Question: Do you scope your slow fire shots as you shoot? Does anyone here advocate against scoping after each shot?

In an effort to manage emotions, I have been changing my shot process to not include scoping the previous shot and focusing on only the next shot in slow fire.

Additional context:
I have been shooting bullseye for 2 years now. I have a strong case, Kowa spotting scope on the mount and bullseye guns that I cannot yet shoot to their ability (Salyer built Range Officer and Volquartsen accurized Ruger Mark IV). My scores hover around 270 now. After reading bullseye mind, I am trying to focus on the next shot and not worry about the last shot.

ponzio

by john bickar Thu Jan 25, 2024 2:04 pm

Scope every shot.

by chiz1180 Thu Jan 25, 2024 2:07 pm

I only scope my shots if I am willing to turn the screws on the sights. The purpose of the scope is for confirming a shot, not for looking for where it went.

by john bickar Thu Jan 25, 2024 2:16 pm

chiz1180 wrote:I only scope my shots if I am willing to turn the screws on the sights. The purpose of the scope is for confirming a shot, not for looking for where it went.

Question: Scoping your slow fire shots Yoda-that-is-why-you-fail

One thread where we discussed this
Another thread
Yet another thread

by RodJ Thu Jan 25, 2024 4:35 pm

Man oh man I needed this thread (probably should be under fundamentals, but I digress).

Something fell apart since last spring, and my targets lately look like the Milky Way exploded. After hard reflection, several things changed but I had not identified this factor, that I stopped scoping each shot. Seemed like a hassle, an RO made fun of me, I felt like a dork, and I couldn’t handle the pressure of seeing 4 10’s / X’s and I’d toss the fifth shot.

And now that I’ve retrogressed? I look like an even BIGGER DORK when the target comes back.

Ponzio, thanks for bringing this up.

John Bickar, thanks for your reply and links to threads on the subject. I’m going to print out the following and paste it in my notebook (emphasis in the original):

by
[ltr]john bickar[/ltr]
» Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:27 am

Chris wrote: wrote:So I was shooting along and looking after every shot. after 4 I had 3 x's and 1 10. Now the pressure started to build.....6. Bummer.

Not to pick on you, Chris (OK, maybe a little Wink

, but this is the argument that I most commonly hear against scoping every shot.

Often people will avoid scoping every shot as a crutch against the internal "pressure" that they feel as a "good" target starts to develop.

In doing so, they are tacitly acknowledging a weakness in their mental game plan, and stubbornly refusing to take any steps to overcome it.

Conversely, the way to learn how to shoot 100s is to put yourself in the position of having 9 10s on a target as often as possible.“

by chiz1180 Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:14 pm

john bickar wrote:
chiz1180 wrote:I only scope my shots if I am willing to turn the screws on the sights. The purpose of the scope is for confirming a shot, not for looking for where it went.

One thread where we discussed this
Another thread
Yet another thread

After the shot is broken, it is either good or bad. Obviously the goal is more good shots than bad. If the shot is good you should know exactly where it should be on target, should take a few seconds to confirm. If the shot was not good, it is not worth looking to see "how bad" it is, no point dwelling on a result that you can not change. If the shot was good, the score potentially could be improved by a small sight adjustment.

Running Matches/leagues I get the chance to watch people shoot. Typically when the better shooters scope a shot it is a very quick process a few seconds. If I see someone who obviously had a bad shot (typically can see from facial expressions, or by how long they are holding and an increase of movement of the gun) they scope the shot and it takes 10-15 seconds for them to find the shot. In the later case scoping the shot does nothing to address why the shot was not good.

A spotting scope is a useful tool when used correctly, but you have to use it with the correct mindset. Assuming a zeroed gun a good shoot is a good shot regardless if look though the scope or not. Your last shoot being good or bad should not be relevant to breaking the next shot, if your first shot was a 9 and on call you can't shoot an 11 to make up for it. No need to score your target via the scope, that's the scorer's job when you go down range to repair (obviously confirm it was done correctly).

by Jwhelan939 Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:31 pm

I scope the first few shots to verify zero. After that I do not.

by bruce martindale Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:39 pm

Focus on this shot, not the next.
Scope to correlate cause and effect,..

is it on call? Not how bad was it.

If you’re thinking about results ( scoping) you may not be fully focused on doing. I scope a couple and then focus on repeating a good performance.

In Air Pistol, I do scope almost every shot but if
I’m in a groove, I don’t. Some of my best matches were without a box or scope

by Jwhelan939 Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:46 pm

Okay. After reading the TT posts, I’m convinced. Makes sense to get the instant feedback.

by Merick Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:35 pm

I shot my personal record scoping my neighbor's target. Infuriated by my shots being off call I shot harder than ever.

by jwax Thu Jan 25, 2024 7:03 pm

"Your last shoot being good or bad should not be relevant to breaking the next shot"-
That would be nice, but....
Here is where I see a problem. For us non-High Masters, making and verifying a bad shot happens to be detrimental to the mindset of making the next shot a good one. How do you forget that bad shot?
If I see a "6", what's on my mind for the next shot? A "6".
Perhaps I'm simply revealing my personal inability to forget a bad shot before the next one. If there are suggestions' as to how to forget bad shots, I'm all ears.

I'll scope in practice, but not at a match. Simply make each shot as best as possible. BTW, I typically know where shot POI is by seeing the gun/sights at the instant of firing. (Without a scope)

by james r chapman Thu Jan 25, 2024 8:07 pm

When I shoot a 6, I stop and think back on what part of the process did I not follow.
Usually not putting the damn gun down….

by Jack H Fri Jan 26, 2024 1:21 am

I will tell this again....
in the early 70s LTC Miller taught me to read the sights and depend less on the scope. I was in my 20s, physically and visually very able. Wish I could say that now.....
I can describe one 50y target back then with a 38 Colt OMM SAO.
XXXXXXXX89
Guess when I scoped.

by JHHolliday Fri Jan 26, 2024 7:11 am

john bickar wrote:Scope every shot.

I'm a bit surprised by this answer. After many years of call-training, don't you HM/M guys KNOW where every shot went without checking? Or is it unlearnable?

by chiz1180 Fri Jan 26, 2024 7:13 am

jwax wrote:"Your last shoot being good or bad should not be relevant to breaking the next shot"-
That would be nice, but....
Here is where I see a problem. For us non-High Masters, making and verifying a bad shot happens to be detrimental to the mindset of making the next shot a good one. How do you forget that bad shot?
If I see a "6", what's on my mind for the next shot? A "6".
Perhaps I'm simply revealing my personal inability to forget a bad shot before the next one. If there are suggestions' as to how to forget bad shots, I'm all ears.

I'll scope in practice, but not at a match. Simply make each shot as best as possible. BTW, I typically know where shot POI is by seeing the gun/sights at the instant of firing. (Without a scope)

Process vs result focus. If I focused on every negative thing that happened, I would not have the small success that I am able to enjoy. Good shots are normal, bad shots can happen. I know a shot is bad, I don't scope it. Knowing how bad it is doesn't give me any meaningful information, I can't shoot a 13 to make up for a 7.

by SteveT Fri Jan 26, 2024 8:03 am

If scoping your last shot distracts you from executing your shot process on your next shot, do not scope. If scoping your last shot helps you to make your next shot better, then scope. The risk in scoping shots is it makes us focus on score and outcome. Success comes by focusing on the process, not the outcome.

Scoping shots to verify zero is overrated IMO. We shoot at the same distances and under largely the same conditions. Unless a gun was dropped or your box tumbled out of the cart, sights don't move; if they do, then they need to be repaired or replaced. Shooting open sights might require sight changes due to lighting, but after a few matches at that range you should know what change is needed. If you are constantly changing things that might need a sight change you are developing your equipment, not improving yourself as a shooter.

For me, breaking the habit of scoping is a constant challenge. Ideally, when I am shooting well, I scope every shot and enjoy that satisfaction of executing my shot plan, calling the shot and seeing the hole right where I expect it. This builds my confidence and helps me continue to execute good shots. If I shoot a bad shot I will visualize seeing the shot just nicking the 10 ring (or 8 or 5 depending on how bad it was). If I am struggling, I don't scope shots, I replay each shot in my head, this time with the correct process and thoughts in my head.

by rrampe Fri Jan 26, 2024 3:48 pm

Speaking for myself, scope every shot adjust stance or sights as necessary to keep shots in the ten ring.

by john bickar Fri Jan 26, 2024 5:45 pm

JHHolliday wrote:
john bickar wrote:Scope every shot.
I'm a bit surprised by this answer. After many years of call-training, don't you HM/M guys KNOW where every shot went without checking? Or is it unlearnable?

The ability to call one's shots is fundamental to being a good shooter, Bullseye or whatever other discipline.

Shoot the shot.

Call it.

Scope it to verify.

Adjust if needed.

Move on.

by hengehold Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:49 pm

At a minimum I scope the first 2 or 3 then shoot the rest blind. Want to make sure I put my 50yd zero on the gun :-)

I typically shoot two shot strings with a timed fire cadence and bring the gun down for about 20 seconds between each string. I scope the two shots from each string to see if my shots are on call or if I have fliers that are off call. I find this helpful because I can associate the feeling of the shot with actual shot placement.

by john bickar Fri Jan 26, 2024 7:01 pm

chiz1180 wrote:
john bickar wrote:
chiz1180 wrote:I only scope my shots if I am willing to turn the screws on the sights. The purpose of the scope is for confirming a shot, not for looking for where it went.

One thread where we discussed this
Another thread
Yet another thread

After the shot is broken, it is either good or bad. Obviously the goal is more good shots than bad. If the shot is good you should know exactly where it should be on target, should take a few seconds to confirm. If the shot was not good, it is not worth looking to see "how bad" it is, no point dwelling on a result that you can not change. If the shot was good, the score potentially could be improved by a small sight adjustment.

Running Matches/leagues I get the chance to watch people shoot. Typically when the better shooters scope a shot it is a very quick process a few seconds. If I see someone who obviously had a bad shot (typically can see from facial expressions, or by how long they are holding and an increase of movement of the gun) they scope the shot and it takes 10-15 seconds for them to find the shot. In the later case scoping the shot does nothing to address why the shot was not good.

A spotting scope is a useful tool when used correctly, but you have to use it with the correct mindset. Assuming a zeroed gun a good shoot is a good shot regardless if look though the scope or not. Your last shoot being good or bad should not be relevant to breaking the next shot, if your first shot was a 9 and on call you can't shoot an 11 to make up for it. No need to score your target via the scope, that's the scorer's job when you go down range to repair (obviously confirm it was done correctly).

I don't fundamentally disagree with anything here, and the only reason why I posted the Yoda "this is why you fail" meme is because we know each other, and I knew you'd take it in the spirit in which it was intended, which was 90% tongue-in-cheek and 10% in earnest.

You said, "A spotting scope is a useful tool when used correctly, but you have to use it with the correct mindset."

I'd amend that to say that "A spotting scope is a vital tool; you must use it correctly; and you must use it with the correct mindset"

I'll repeat: Scope. Every. Shot. Learn to do this and it will make you a better shooter.

by chiz1180 Sat Jan 27, 2024 7:49 am

john bickar wrote:
I'll repeat: Scope. Every. Shot. Learn to do this and it will make you a better shooter.

I disagree as I have discovered from the conditions that I regularly shoot, it often is not possible to scope every shot, low light conditions or rain for example. Another big condition is wind. Shooting slow fire in the wind, if I encounter a lull and I am ready to take a shot, I often will take two, sometimes even three or four shots. If I were to stop and scope each shot I could loose the advantageous condition.

In the most ideal perfect conditions, yes I do scope every shot. However around 5-10% of the time, conditions dictate otherwise, which is why my process is not completely reliant on the spotting scope.

by Merick Sat Jan 27, 2024 8:15 am

Can we put a rifle type scope stand on the ground behind the bench, or can we only put gear on the bench?

by **Wobbley** Sat Jan 27, 2024 11:15 am

People do, essentially your firing point is your space, but you do have to stand without touching anything.

by 1911-45 Sat Jan 27, 2024 12:44 pm

If you learn to call your shots as you should, what is the difference between calling a bad shot and scoping a bad shot?
I feel scoping a shot and verifying it can help remind you to refocus on the fundamentals for the next shot. But if I'm in my groove and everything feels right I may not scope every shot but will scope most.

by SaraiEsq Sat Jan 27, 2024 1:33 pm

(I have not yet investigated the other threads John linked on this topic. So I may sound less learned than usual.)

I have a scope. I found my better tripod after the other broke at Nationals. I don't have a box, so this is freestanding on the bench. It takes me forever to get it adjusted and find the target; I'm just not good at it and I feel rather dumb as a result. And, I haven't figured out placement so that all I need to do is tilt my head to look through it like the good shooters do. (Yes, I watch you guys! How else am I to learn?)

I don't understand the process of calling one's shot. Two pictures come to mind when I hear the phrase: Babe Ruth pointing to the fences every time he is up to bat, and someone on a black corded rotary telephone dialing 7-4-6-8 very slowly. Neither visual gets me closer to an X. **

Since I don't have mad shot calling skillz, the debate on scoping is theoretical for me. But it makes good sense to verify the first shot (in case something fouled up your sights, for example, or you forgot to adjust them) and most shots thereafter, especially if something feels weird.

==================
**First target of the new year with my Ruger. 10 yards, 35 shots. And until I brought the target in, I could not have told you where any shot would be. This is the pitiful state of affairs which is my shooting life. (sigh)

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