Are you an Either Or?

Years ago I heard from many accomplished shooters, middle of the road Masters, ( not HM) who complained that they could shoot ( and did shoot) great 45 scores (560s +) only to do poorly with the “Candy Ass” 22.

I, like many accomplished International shooters, had the opposite problem….particularly with 2 stage triggers…l could shoot Bullseye 880s with the 22, 570s in Air, mid 530s in Free but frequently followed those up with low 800s in the 45.

Lately Ive been training with the 45 and guess what? 45s up, others down…bingo.

I’m thinking that I’m having trouble shifting gears; With a 45, l am “ pulling it like l mean it” but I am no longer patient with guns that need finesse. 

The difference, in my mind is stalling, or almost stalling on 2 stage guns or lighter triggers vs keeping the trigger (pressure) moving on a 45 trigger with both higher sear weight and perhaps a longer engagement. Too rough/fast on a lighter trigger can lead to jerks .

Thoughts?  Where do you fit in here?

Hi Bruce,
Too me (in the 1990's) there was no difference between Air Pistol, Standard Pistol and .45 BE trigger weights.
The bullet is long gone by the time you feel any recoil, so why react to recoil? (quote by one of my mentors).
Maybe you are bull gazing? I also give some credit to being an accomplished aerospace TIG Welder, as we learn to do 4 things at once.
Pistol is only 2 things at once - all about proper trigger control and sight alignment (from the GOAT).
Scott

I am of the firm belief that you need to put the time in with both to do well with both. It is much simpler to shoot 22 or air because you just need the 22 ammo or pellets. 45 ammo you need to add a whole loading process in the mix. I have found regardless of trigger weight, if I spent the time dryfiring everything and keeping up with light exercises to maintain and improve my hold, my average between air, 22 and 45 are basically the same.

I have found that “Timed Fire” is a decent way for me to train. If I do slow fire training, I have a tendency to not “just pull the trigger, stupid”. So my scores are creeping up. It reinforces the mantra of “just shoot the first 10 you see “. Most of the ISSF pistol events are slow fire events and with low recoil light trigger guns….

They’re all different sports with different equipment. It’s like comparing the 5K to the 800 to the 100 hurdles. It’s all “running,” and if you’re good at one, you’ll be decent at the others, but prioritizing one set of skills will harm the others.

Air pistol and free seem to compliment each other, but CF/45 bullseye is definitely its own beast.

Yep, same here. I believe the main issue here is the grip angle. I spent quite a bit of time working on my 45, the trigger is the nicest one I've ever tried on a 1911, but switching from the shallow "European style" grip to the 1911 is a huge challenge for me. Oh well, you can't always get what you want...

I’ve been struggling with the 45 for years. I get 850-860 with my Pardini SP and HP(32acp) but I’m lucky to break into the 7s with my 45.

Heh.

I've only been asking myself that question for the last 35 years.

Let me know when you find the answer.

Ever since I got my Pardini, I've been dreaming about a gun in the same form factor but in .45ACP. Imagine how awesome it would be to have a gun in .45ACP with a grip similar to the one on European sport and air pistols, magwell in front of the trigger guard and a non-tilting barrel. I've been quietly working on a design for the past three years, I have a whole bunch of different 3D models in my Fusion 360 account, but so far nothing realistic came up. I doubt it will ever materialize, but a man can dream, right?
I guess I will just focus more in my International shooting while building 1911s for others...

javaduke wrote:Ever since I got my Pardini, I've been dreaming about a gun in the same form factor but in .45ACP. Imagine how awesome it would be to have a gun in .45ACP with a grip similar to the one on European sport and air pistols, magwell in front of the trigger guard and a non-tilting barrel. I've been quietly working on a design for the past three years, I have a whole bunch of different 3D models in my Fusion 360 account, but so far nothing realistic came up. I doubt it will ever materialize, but a man can dream, right?
I guess I will just focus more in my International shooting while building 1911s for others...

I have lots of informed thoughts on this based on personal experience.

My best-formed thought is: "What works for one, may not work for everyone. Therefore, it's helpful to the Bullseye community to have a diverse set of options."

Keep experimenting. I think it's helpful for the sport.

Agree 100%, but there's a third category, things that don't work for anyone  I'm afraid my dream gun is just one of these things. Hopefully when (if!) I retire, I will have a bit more time to spend on the design and implementation.

I was in similar circumstance to others, I had .22 scores that were good enough to cover my lower .45 scores, and was able to make expert class.  I decided to work more on my .45, and have finally brought up the scores to where they are usually at the 810 level or better.

I don't get to practice much, but when I do, it is indoors at 45 feet.  I almost exclusively work on my 45, and most of that practice is rapid fire.  For me, there are a lot of points to be gained in .45 sustained fire.

For reference, my .22 is a model 41, and I put the CMM grip adaptor on it to make the grip similar to a 1911.

When I was actively competing, I was in a similar situation. I'd shoot my H-208s in the 880's, but my 1911 scores kept pulling me down. Actually, it wasn't my 1911 SF scores or TF scores, it was my RF. What was weird is that I had my own turning target system and focused my training on 1911 RF. I just could never overcome the mental block of RF. Maybe a coach or sports psychology specialists could have broken through to me, although I did study a lot by reading and listening to tapes. I'll end by asking if it is just one match, i.e. SF, TF or RF with the 1911 that is holding you down or the whole CF and .45 match?

being a below average shooter, I found one thing that really helped was
ergonomic grips, Nill, Dick Horton, etc that did away with inconsistent gripping

Shot at Perry one year next to a guy shooting 700's in .22. Next day, in CF, he's in the mid 800'! Sure enough, in .45 he scored 880! I asked why this was, and he said "Dad" taught him the .45 first, and how to become proficient with it. Everything else, .22, .38, came later.
I think most of us learn the rimfire first, and stumble upward in caliber, and downward in scores. At least that's what I do.
But, I shoot .22 80% of the time, and lately 20% with the .38. Guess I oughta dust off the .45, eh?

I have shot mostly the same scores with .22 and .45s. However, i have shot my best scores with the .45. I think there is a transition from one to the other and have spent time and money working on what and why I feel a difference. I find it challenging to characterize this difference in feel. I do not think recoil or trigger weight are major factors. Balance and weight of the guns seem to be a factor and I find that forward balanced .22s are more of a transition than ,22s balanced more like a .45 1911. I find that the grip, wrist, forearm and shoulder muscle tension is different shooting each type of pistol and if I try to match the .22 tension with how the .45 tension feels I produce similar results. Having a heavier .22 balanced like a .45 helps with this.

I wonder, with so many people seeing the “either or,” what is the reason? And do those of you that have tried think that shooting a conversion for 22 eliminates most of the differences?

Jwhelan939 wrote:I wonder, with so many people seeing the “either or,” what is the reason? And do those of you that have tried think that shooting a conversion for 22 eliminates most of the differences?

The biggest risk to using a conversion (in my experience) is trying to rely on it to heavily to translate practice time to the 45. Even if you shoot a conversion, you still need to put time in on the 45. 

Early on I got caught in the trap of putting a disproportional amount of time in on the 22, than with the 45. When I shifted tactics to put proportional time into shooting both, I got significantly better with the 45.

The advantage of shooting a conversion is the ergonomics are the same as my 45. When I shoot my 208 with rinks, my grip is different, same thing with my Ruger Mk 1 with its angled grip. Those two examples also have a heal style release. Fairly small differences that I have to think about when I shoot them over a 1911 platform.

Piggybacking on the above…. I’ve shot my best NMCs (292 PB with consistent 285+) using my main .45 lower on conversions. 4 lb 5 oz trigger and all.

I don’t think of the .22 as a .45 trainer. It just allows me to use the same grips and trigger the whole match. It’s mentally simpler. Would I be better off using a higher quality .22 with well-fit grips and a real .22 trigger in it? Probably, but then the CF transition would require more conscious effort.

If anything, it turns the .45 into a “hard mode” trainer for the .22 portion of the match.

I messed arround with a spreadsheet and a 45 diameter bullet should only be about 1 point improvement over a .22 for a 10 shot string the way I modeled it (which is likely incorrect.)

Also there is probably a handful of points lost to alibi strings which are more common for 22s than 45, though I'm not sure how to quantify that.

At higer levels the score gap is wider than those would explain so evidently there is something else going on.

we shoot against a two time national champ "Don S."  pistols?  and 1911 and a .22 conversion on a 1911. Could be the answer.

javaduke wrote:Ever since I got my Pardini, I've been dreaming about a gun in the same form factor but in .45ACP. Imagine how awesome it would be to have a gun in .45ACP with a grip similar to the one on European sport and air pistols, magwell in front of the trigger guard and a non-tilting barrel. I've been quietly working on a design for the past three years, I have a whole bunch of different 3D models in my Fusion 360 account, but so far nothing realistic came up. I doubt it will ever materialize, but a man can dream, right?
I guess I will just focus more in my International shooting while building 1911s for others...

A modern broom handle!