Zero 185 gr HP's hang up and do not chamber

Ladies & Gentlemen,
 
First, I'm new here and this is my first post. I did look through other posts and I haven't seen anything similar to the issue I'm having, so please forgive me if it's something I missed. 


My Colt Gold Cup 1911 is having issues chambering reloads with the Zero 185 hollowpoints. I'm trying to find the magic COAL to alleviate this issue, assuming that's the issue. I've trued a variety of COAL but haven't been successful in finding one that feeds without problems. While troubleshooting, it's not the magazines. I tried the original Colt magazine and the Metalform magazines. Maybe it's just my .45 doesn't like the 185's? 
 
1. What is the COAL you're using? Is shorter or longer the key? At this point, 1.247 feeds, but that seems long ....

The 185 HP has a unique nose, so you're better off measuring from the shoulder. 0.920" to the shoulder is pretty standard, but my pistols tend to like a little longer, 0.928-.930".

For the Metalform mags, assuming you're using the rou d follower mags? Just making sure.

Dave

Ah poop. I think you're talking about JHP. Disregard my post.

Dave

Hanging up where?

Are they stuck against the barrel feed ramp, or only entering the chamber part way?

Got an image to post?

DA/SA wrote:Hanging up where?

Are they stuck against the barrel feed ramp, or only entering the chamber part way?

Got an image to post?

They're jamming at the base of the chamber, just above the feed ramp. 

Most likely the barrel feed ramp is extending too far rearward in relation to the frame feed ramp... or the barrel is not linking down properly.

First off welcome, hope to see you at a match some time soon.

Few questions on your gold cup:
-Is it stock?
-what mainspring and recoil spring?
-does it run other reloads or factory ammo?

Few questions regarding your reloads
-what OAL length have you tried?
-are you crimping the bullet after seating?

For the Zero 185 JHP I run 1.200" OAL

chiz1180 wrote:First off welcome, hope to see you at a match some time soon.

Few questions on your gold cup:
-Is it stock?
-what mainspring and recoil spring?
-does it run other reloads or factory ammo?

Few questions regarding your reloads
-what OAL length have you tried?
-are you crimping the bullet after seating?

For the Zero 185 JHP I run 1.200" OAL

Thank you. 

The barrel is a Kart, other than that it's basically 'factory'. I did have a trigger job done, to include a new hammer. I haven't changed out any of the springs. 
As for COAL, I've tried 1.185" and the barely work. 1.247" feeds just fine, but that seems excessively long. 
I've been crimping at .468. 

This .45 eats everything re: factory and reloads. BUT *just* not these Zero 185 JHP's. Everything under 1.200" with these bullets hangs up. Oddly, Atomic .45 ACP Match is 1.160" feed just fine. Seems the profile is more the problem than the length.

Check the extractor tension and fit. The base of the bullet may not be sliding up into the extractor well enough, while the front of the bullet continues to feed, causing a bind.

From the picture, I’m NOT seeing that any crimp was applied.  So there is a residual flare catching on something.  It looks like you’re loading a JHP.  Even jacketed bullets need a bit of a crimp in 45 ACP.  For jacketed I put a crimp of .468-.470 on all my JHP loads. 

Here is how I measure crimp.   

I am running my Zero 185gr JHP at 1.205" OAL with a 0.468" crimp in my 1971 Gold Cup (light slide) with a Kart barrel.  I am also using Metalform mags with round followers.

I am crimping the ammunition to .464. Might be too much, but they are being crimped.

Not saying it's the cause of your issue, but crimp beyond 0.470 on true jacketed bullets like those Zeros shouldn't be productive.

Just using two types of mags doesn't rule out mags. There are three main types of 1911 magazine lips. Those in the Wilson 47D and similar are the most forgiving, as they give up hold on the cartridge earliest.


Thank you for the heads up on the magazines. I ordered a few and will see if they make a difference.

I presume, you ruled out magazines?! 

AP

PhotoEscape wrote:I presume, you ruled out magazines?! 

AP

Yes. I’ve tried Colt and Metalform magazines.

As said, check your extractor tension, make sure the cartridge is climbing completely up before it releases from magazine

I run my 185 jhp at 1.260, so your 1.247 is fine. If they feed, go for it. Try 1.469 or 1.470 for crimp on jhps

I've had the same problem with 185 Zero's in my Range Officer. They cycle fine in everything else. My simple fix was to mark them as not suitable for the RO and moved on. Okay that might be a little too simple. I had that problem with my KTM and solved it by taking my dremal and with a very fine stone polished the feed ramps edges and sides of chamber. They were so sharp they would grab on anything that got near them. I never had to do anything to my Gold Cup barrel. After 20 years of service there were no sharp edges left. I know I could get my RO to feed them. I have enough fodder that runs 100% so I'm just going to leave it alone. YMMV

jglenn21 wrote:I run my 185 jhp at 1.260, so your 1.247 is fine. If they feed, go for it. Try 1.469 or 1.470 for crimp on jhps

I did find in testing (to see if they chamber) pushing up on the bottom of the magazine helped. Not sure if it really did or was imagined, but the 1.247” chambered. I have heard that there is a higher magazine catch. Maybe that’s part of the solution with these loads. 

I know I’m preaching to the choir here. We’re headed to Perry in a few weeks for the first time and this load development is a complete pain in the ass.

It could be that due to very small variations in the bullet profile and the given gap between the barrel throat and the frame ramp the rounds just don't go high enough before they hit the barrel. Sometimes higher magazine catch like this one https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2160267225 helps.
Or maybe change the angle of the barrel throat ever so slightly (one has to be VERY careful with removing material from the throat, because this surface is critical for the reliability).

javaduke wrote:It could be that due to very small variations in the bullet profile and the given gap between the barrel throat and the frame ramp the rounds just don't go high enough before they hit the barrel. Sometimes higher magazine catch like this one https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2160267225 helps.
Or maybe change the angle of the barrel throat ever so slightly (one has to be VERY careful with removing material from the throat, because this surface is critical for the reliability).

That was the point of my post above. The lower edge of the barrel feed ramp should be down against the upper surface (barrel bed) of the frame ramp, and slightly foreward of the frame ramp. If the bullet nose is being impaled in the lower edge of the barrel feed ramp, (which appears to be the case) that indicates that that edge is somehow exposed, which it shouldn't be. 

The fact that it has had a Kart barrel installed, may be indicative that a bit more fitting may be needed.

Kart barrel in my Gold Cup. Not sure who initially fit the barrel but KC Crawford tuned it a bit. Feeds 185 Zero or Nosler JHPs at 1.200 - 1.210" extremely reliably.

Before you go messing with the feed ramp, if possible consult the smith that fit it. As Len mentioned, if everything else works fine why struggle with the 185jhps?

As a recap from simplest to most complex things to look into:
-run a different projectile
-Crimp? are you crimping enough?
-magazines, using the round follower style or GI
-extractor tension?
-high mag catch
-feed ramp

These Sig mags have different geometry and cured my feeding problems after I had Accu-Rails installed on my Gold Cup. Every other brand and configuration of mags hung up like yours.
Hope this helps.

Sig Sauer 1911 FS .45 ACP Magazine 8 Round Stainless Steel - MAG-1911-45-8

LarryO7096 wrote:

jglenn21 wrote:I run my 185 jhp at 1.260, so your 1.247 is fine. If they feed, go for it. Try 1.469 or 1.470 for crimp on jhps

I did find in testing (to see if they chamber) pushing up on the bottom of the magazine helped. Not sure if it really did or was imagined, but the 1.247” chambered. I have heard that there is a higher magazine catch. Maybe that’s part of the solution with these loads. 

I know I’m preaching to the choir here. We’re headed to Perry in a few weeks for the first time and this load development is a complete pain in the ass.

I tested the 1.250 and most chambered without a problem. I think I will make 10 at 1.260. Also, I ordered the Wilson Combat 47D magazines to see if the issue can also be corrected that way.

UPDATE: 8 of the 10 functioned well, the remaining two did not feed. Hopeful the new magazines help to solve the problem.

NukeMMC wrote:Kart barrel in my Gold Cup.  Not sure who initially fit the barrel but KC Crawford tuned it a bit. Feeds 185 Zero or Nosler JHPs at 1.200 - 1.210" extremely reliably.

It sounds like the OP may not have the small distance between the top of the feed ramp and the bottom lip of the barrel at the chamber mouth. The pics in the quoted post show what a proper barrel chamber to feed ramp fit is supposed to look like.