.22LR Pistol barrel twist rate

Anyone know of a good source to determine best twist rate for .22LR pistol barrel? I'm thinking 1-15 might be better for the slower import ammo like SK. I made a pistol barrel from Anschutz barrel blank that I was told is 1-16-1/2, it got the best group size from CCI standard, didn't try HV. Lower velocity Eley and SK grouped larger so I assumed it was the twist rate. Another barrel bade from Lilja standard barrel 1-16 had all 3 shoot about the same. Maybe 1-15 will work better???

What does the USAMU use when they rebuild their Hammerli pistols? They should have some usable information based on research and experience.

I should of though of that Sa-tevp! Thanks, I called Adam to see if he can get that Info.
I was machining the Barrels for Floyd Aikman, I would get about 5 blanks from McGowen or Lilja (can't remember which one) If I recall bore was .211. Don't remember twist rate nor number of grooves. Lilja has 6 groove in 1-16 and 1-15 .215" bore and .220 groove. I do have a Lilja 2" round blank .220" groove, .215" bore 1-16 twist and 6 grooves. Was wondeing if 1-15 is better

It seems the BR rim fire guys are buying 16.5 inch twists, but I’m not sure if there’s a consensus really.  In any event with bullets more or less a standard shape and all, I don’t see a tremendous benefit to getting too experimental.  There are other things to mess with than twist rate,

https://www.killoughshootingsports.com/benchrest-c12/rimfire-rifle-barrels-c18

Something in the back of my head is 'suggesting' the lower velocity of a pistol allows for a lower spin rate for stability ... RPM ... so the same twist compensates for a longer or shorter barrel.

Not that I wouldn't do the same experiment. I have a Lilja on a rifle, don't remember now if it's 17 or 18 twist. I've shot it at 200 yds and its the equal or better of either of my Anschutz match rifles.

I have been searching the web for answers. Some claim 1-9" is best! However Lilja only offers their tight bore barrels (.2200" groove diameter, 215" bore diameter) in 2 twist rates, 1-16 and 1-15". Probably those rates are most ordered. Problem with testing is the barrel blanks are so expensive, probably near $500 with shipping. Pstol barrel are less than 6". (ff my memory is correct the Nelson barrel is 4-7/8"). I'm thinking a faster twist rate would be better.

1-9 ... for the 60 grain, whatever?
Tight bore, seems actual match ammo, Eley, Lapua, not a problem with a standard bore.

Aquila...??
Never really figured out what that was all about. Silhouette?
Don't remember reading anything that made me think anything other than 'garbage'.
Wouldn't be the least bit surprised if I missed something.

I got to witness SSG Greg Markowski of the USAMU shoot a 100 - 7X (Inside 10s) on the first 22 stage of a 2700 using one of the USAMU rebarreled Hammerli 208s. (not sure but probably Eley Tenex). Always fun to see him smile.

I kinda think the USAMU has this figured out.

Not exactly trying to bust on you but my day job is troubleshooting expensive systems, so I hope my viewpoint makes sense.

I have been using SK Pistol Match and Pistol Match Special. Eley I tested was Purple Box, have to get a box to determine what is was. When Adam was in the AMU they were using it, Adam said they tested it and shot better than Red Box. So at Perry I purchased a few bricks. As I mentioned out of the Anschutz 1-16-1/2 twist barrel  CCI standard grouped far better! As velocity decreased group got bigger.

Over the years, smallbore, seems individual lots of whatever brand are the 'best'.

I'm not the AMU ... I'd just buy Eley or Lapua and shoot it.

Froneck wrote:Lilja has 6 groove in 1-16 and 1-15 .215" bore and .220 groove. I do have a Lilja 2" round blank .220" groove, .215" bore 1-16 twist and 6 grooves. Was wondeing if 1-15 is better

Hi Frank,
For what it's worth, I had FC60 machine me a 1911 conversion barrel out of the 6 groove, 1:16", .215" bore .220" groove Lilja blank.
It's very accurate and loves any grade of Eley, but certain lots of CCI are terrible.
At the time Lilja offered cutoff barrels for us pistol shooters, so look on the website or call him.
Hope this helps,
Wes

I'll check Lilja again, I did about 6 or 7 months ago, only short lengths available, (I purchased a few) .2215" groove depth .217 bore in 1-16 barrel cut-offs that were slightly longer than 6" They were the 1-16 I mentioned that shot all the ammo I tested in the Anschutz 1-16-1/2 twits about same group size. I did by bore scope to check to see how my chambering and crowing looked. Was happy to see it better than all my other high end .22s from factory. Used 6 flute Manson reamer with their Viper Venom lube.
 I do have a barrel done by Floyd Aikman that would not group dime size at 50meters in a 41 for S. Young. I put it in my copy of the IZH-35. It did shoot dime size group maybe less at 50yards with CCI ammo.
 I haven't shot CCI for years so I'm not worried about how CCI shoots. Local gun shop was selling it for $125 a case if 5 cases were purchased, Adam would empty cases of .22s when he was home. so I still have about a brick or 2.
 Actually the finial barrel is not for me, a has been, Barrel is for Adam that wants 1911 frame. He does have a 215  made the same as the Franken208s the AMU were using.

Up-Date. Checked with Adam, AMU tried both 1-16 and 1-15 twist rates, could NOT get 1-15 to shoot good in Rifle or Pistol, are using 1-16. Also as I mentioned my Homemade IZH-35 with Aikman's barrel it's 6 groove when checked with bore scope not 12! I'll take the gun to the shop so I can use pin gauges to determine bore diameter.
 Guess that answers my question! I'll be getting 1-16 twist.

Greetings,

This prompted me to go and review all my test targets for the various barrels I have tested.

They included 4G, 6G, 8G, 7.7 twist, 14 twist, and 16 twist.

Pardini use 16T (400mm).

They all shot X-ring.

I have to think that the ammunition is key to the group size. Normally, I shoot ten shots with whatever ammo I have in the bin. It ranges from TENEX to CCI Blazer. Sometimes I get a dime sized group at 50 yards with the cheap ammo. In general, TENEX shoots Ten-X. Although some lots are better than others.

Testing 45 ammo recently, I have learned that shooting 5 ten shot groups and taking the average of all five offers a better analysis.

A future project will be to shoot five ten shot groups of the same lot of 22lr ammo next time I test a barrel.

This may be a redundant comment; but, machining the barrel chamber and muzzle crown is, obviously, of paramount need.

I single point cut the muzzle crown after dialing in the barrel true on the lathe.

The chamber gets single point bored true to the barrel axis then finish reamed.

Froneck, I look forward to your test results.

Cheers,

Dave

Sa-tevp wrote:What does the USAMU use when they rebuild their Hammerli pistols? They should have some usable information based on research and experience.

The answer isn't simple. They have used various barrel suppliers over the years. "Why not standardize on a single vendor?", I can hear from the back of the room.

Think about this problem from the AMU perspective: it's a logistics question. Just about everything they and the big Army do is all centered around logistics. The success of WW2 is because of this feature.

What follows is conjecture, but I'd be willing to bet some amount of money that it is more or less complete.

So, do you think the AMU goes through more rifle or pistol barrels in a year? The answer is rifle, all day every day. You can see the evidence of this in smallbore and HP; those teams are just as big or bigger than pistol, and are generally running higher pressure cartridges anyway. Rifle teams are going to run barrels to a round count and then pull and toss- it is the easiest way to track whether something needs replacement, be it round count, or machine hours, or miles, etc. Labor hours cost to test, and they aren't unlimited, no matter what the layperson may think.

Next, think about the 22 barrels that the teams would need. For the smallbore (i.e. Olympic) gang, it's 22 all day every day. Because rifle shooting is much more marketable and popular (which is due to a whole host of factors), and because of competitive pressure to always be at the top of the podium for the unit, which is how they ultimately achieve their mission, they will buy as many barrels as they think they will need to achieve that outcome. And when you are purchasing barrels by the bushel, what is it to use a few in some pistols? It's nothing.

The wrinkle, if there is one, is that the AMU is always sourcing various and sundry things to see if they can find an edge- but most importantly, one they can buy in some quantity that will get them through a season or quad or whatever time frame they are solving for (again, logistics). I think this is why they switch vendors from time to time. Also, it would make sense that they probably have bulk orders with some number of suppliers, and if a particular bit of material showed extra promise, they may bulk buy if possible whatever that item is. This would explain how the "the AMU does this," sort of stories you hear from time to time, even though everything is always in flux. Yes, that rumor or if you ask them could very much be true right when they say it- but it can change next week. Remember that.

In any case, the AMU most likely air gages their barrels, and the tightest ones make it into top level guns that need them. If it is a rifle, great. If it is a cutoff that could be used in a pistol, great. If this barrel is gtg, but don't need it for a rifle, but we need some Hammerli barrels, great.

If you want to get a good blank, go with a good vendor. Bartlein or Krieger or Obermeyer is where I would be looking, if you wanted to machine your own barrel for your Hammerli.

Best,
Chase

(N.B. I mention Obermeyer due to historical value for future people who may come across this post. My understanding is that they had some Federal contracts, though they are no longer in business. Also, not trying to slur any particular manufacturer, such as Lija, by not mentioning them or any others.)

I knew most of the AMU smiths a few years ago before Adam retired especially pistol. Yes they look into everything! I've been in the shop, they have the best of everything needed! Some of them are just working on supplying the shooters with the guns needed and others looking for products that will make the gun supplied better! I'm sure they tried every barrel from every manufacture, I know they buy one-ofs  just to test it. I didn't ask Adam what brand of barrel they are using but will. I may not disclose that info if requested. AMU does not like to endorse anyone.
 By the way, I'm not intending to re-barrel a Hammerli. I'm working on .22LR 1911 conversion. Accuracy and Function perfection are my goals.

Chase Turner wrote:

Sa-tevp wrote:What does the USAMU use when they rebuild their Hammerli pistols? They should have some usable information based on research and experience.

The answer isn't simple. They have used various barrel suppliers over the years. "Why not standardize on a single vendor?", I can hear from the back of the room.

Having worked with some large manufacturers and having been involved in racing with engineering support from manufacturers, I think it is simple from the viewpoint that what you see in competition is just the tip of the iceberg of a lot of testing and research. Any of these institutions has decades of testing and engineering notes available. I would expect the USAMU to be the same with "We know this works, we know this doesn't work, works but... and doesn't work but... and here's our homework".

A good friend made his name with some NASCAR teams by blowing the dust off of binders of stored engineering information his company had on shelves and getting better approved components made using modern materials and manufacturing.

Sa-tevp wrote:

Chase Turner wrote:

Sa-tevp wrote:What does the USAMU use when they rebuild their Hammerli pistols? They should have some usable information based on research and experience.

The answer isn't simple. They have used various barrel suppliers over the years. "Why not standardize on a single vendor?", I can hear from the back of the room.

Having worked with some large manufacturers and having been involved in racing with engineering support from manufacturers, I think it is simple from the viewpoint that what you see in competition is just the tip of the iceberg of a lot of testing and research. Any of these institutions has decades of testing and engineering notes available. I would expect the USAMU to be the same with "We know this works, we know this doesn't work, works but... and doesn't work but... and here's our homework".

A good friend made his name with some NASCAR teams by blowing the dust off of binders of stored engineering information his company had on shelves and getting better approved components made using modern materials and manufacturing.

Whatever you say my man. What you describe isn't simple, but in the wise words of a fellow passenger on MARTA once told me, "you do you, boo."

-Chase

Development is probably a combination of maker and user. Makers want to make the best they can and experiment with material, groove and bore size compared to bullet diameter, bullet weight and quite a bit more. The user then applies what the maker claimed to verify results. I'm sure there might be the reverse when a user requests a special barrel made. However there is so much the average shooter/experimenter can't try all. But the AMU having a large budget can. They look into just about everything in a quest to give their shooters the best possible as well as experimenting. Some that eventually filters down to the average guy. Fire arms makers are the same, AMU has just about every so called target grade pistol available.
 As I mentioned I did put a bore gauge in that Floyd Aikman barrel used in my homemade IZH-35. I was surprised to see that .218 fit and .219 would not, that is much larger than I expected. But Adam I sure put 9 or 10 cases of CCI standard thru that barrel! That's about 1/2 million rounds yet it still shoots great! Interesting the IZH barrel is only 1/2" in diameter. IZH maybe be 13mm but my copy is .500".

Barrels , I had a Joe Chambers Conversion kit he made and it was magnificent. It had a micro grove barrel and shot good. I think the test target was .50 at 50 yards. My only issue with the barrel is it lost some accuracy after the first 100 or so rounds after cleaning no matter the ammo Eley, SK, RWS  ect... 

I sold it because my Nelson out shot it in live matches clean or dirty. I like to clean the 22 then foul the 22lr before a match, so the groups opening up bothered me with the micro grove barrel. 

The one that was far superior to the rest was the Nelson that Dave Sam's relined with a Lothar Liner. The test target on that one was good not spectacular. But with any ammo that conversion would hold the x ring at 50 years. 

I think I sold that one to Jon when I was not shooting matches anymore he can tell you that one shoot lights out.