How does one best choose a projectile contour or construct for bullseye shooting?
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Wobbley
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chiz1180
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How does one best choose a projectile contour or construct for bullseye shooting?
please forgive the naiveté of this question as i'm still rather new to the sport.
When i was shooting longer range rifle, choosing an appropriate projectile generally seemed to follow a rather specific pattern or attributes. Granted, as always, one optimized load to the barrel/platform, distance and goal (paper, steel, hunting etc.).
With respect to bullseye pistol formats, one is generally shooting paper targets at rather standardized distances. As such, is there a tried and true way to choose the appropriate projectile contour/construct. I see several options often described such as double end wad cutters, wad cutters, hollow point, flat point, with and without cannelure, conical, hollow base etc. etc. etc.
so....how do i choose? finances i must admit are a bit of a concern yet i don't want to be "penny wise and pound foolish"
Testing all the different variables, while great fun can be daunting and might well exceed my finances and lifespan.
thank you in advance for your time and help
(i must admit, the conical jacketed hollow point projectiles from Zero sure are pretty)
When i was shooting longer range rifle, choosing an appropriate projectile generally seemed to follow a rather specific pattern or attributes. Granted, as always, one optimized load to the barrel/platform, distance and goal (paper, steel, hunting etc.).
With respect to bullseye pistol formats, one is generally shooting paper targets at rather standardized distances. As such, is there a tried and true way to choose the appropriate projectile contour/construct. I see several options often described such as double end wad cutters, wad cutters, hollow point, flat point, with and without cannelure, conical, hollow base etc. etc. etc.
so....how do i choose? finances i must admit are a bit of a concern yet i don't want to be "penny wise and pound foolish"
Testing all the different variables, while great fun can be daunting and might well exceed my finances and lifespan.
thank you in advance for your time and help
(i must admit, the conical jacketed hollow point projectiles from Zero sure are pretty)
brand-new- Posts : 156
Join date : 2022-01-12
Re: How does one best choose a projectile contour or construct for bullseye shooting?
I currently own a RRA 1911 and a Giles 1911 and both came with paperwork regarding the loads used to test them, so I started there.
I generally have a range of bullet weights in my stash, usually 180gr, 185gr, and 200gr. Some are JHPs, others are cast with lube rings, still others are polymer coated. I load test loads using various powders (Bullseye, W231, N310) and whatever else I can find. Test firing from a rest helps me sort out which loads have potential and which do not.
This task is one of the most onerous ones associated with our hobby, but worth it in the long run to maximize the potential of your equipment.
I once found a list of recommended loads used by master and high-master shooters that also proved to be helpful. Unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to find that thread now.
I generally have a range of bullet weights in my stash, usually 180gr, 185gr, and 200gr. Some are JHPs, others are cast with lube rings, still others are polymer coated. I load test loads using various powders (Bullseye, W231, N310) and whatever else I can find. Test firing from a rest helps me sort out which loads have potential and which do not.
This task is one of the most onerous ones associated with our hobby, but worth it in the long run to maximize the potential of your equipment.
I once found a list of recommended loads used by master and high-master shooters that also proved to be helpful. Unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to find that thread now.
Dulcmrman- Posts : 53
Join date : 2017-12-29
Age : 77
Location : Prescott, AZ
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Re: How does one best choose a projectile contour or construct for bullseye shooting?
I will approach trying to keep it as simplified as posible.
In 45, you have 2 major options Jacketed and lead-
For the most part in jacketed the best option are JHPs (much like the nosler/zero 185 style). In the past jacket SWCs existed but not so much anymore. It is my understanding that the construction method of JHPs make them very consistent.
In lead, you have much more variety in lead hardness and profile variations. Swagged lead is soft, cast is typically harder. General rule of thumb you can run cast faster than swagged. Profile for bullseye in 45 lead is typically a SWC, not all are created equal. the H&G 68 style are a benchmark profile in cast, with lots of variations. Zero has swagged SWHP (semi-wadcutter hollow points) that are also quite good. Projectile weight is typically 185-200gr. The SWC profiles cut nice clean holes, which makes scoring "easier". Lots more experimentation has been done in lead (easier to make lead bullets than jacketed), lots more options to play around with.
Lead is typically cheaper, but it can be a bit more challenging to get a solid performer at 50, jacketed can accomplish that task simpler. Jacketed can also be run with a bullet dropper, where as lead has more challenges.
If starting out I would recommend starting with a popular and available projectile (Zero 185swhp or H&G 68 style cast in lead would be a good place to start, the 185 zero JHP are also excellent) as you can lean on others experiences for starting points. For example the 3.6-4.0 bullseye with the 200gr H&G 68 style bullet is a common lead load, the 185jhp with 4.2-4.4 n310 is a common jacketed load. I would recommend trialing some loads before loading up a bunch.
Full wadcutters are more of a 32/38 thing, HBWC are typically considered the more accurate of the full wadcutters, the main difference is the base is hollow and they are typically of swagged construction.
Far from a complete dissertation, but hopefully helpful.
In 45, you have 2 major options Jacketed and lead-
For the most part in jacketed the best option are JHPs (much like the nosler/zero 185 style). In the past jacket SWCs existed but not so much anymore. It is my understanding that the construction method of JHPs make them very consistent.
In lead, you have much more variety in lead hardness and profile variations. Swagged lead is soft, cast is typically harder. General rule of thumb you can run cast faster than swagged. Profile for bullseye in 45 lead is typically a SWC, not all are created equal. the H&G 68 style are a benchmark profile in cast, with lots of variations. Zero has swagged SWHP (semi-wadcutter hollow points) that are also quite good. Projectile weight is typically 185-200gr. The SWC profiles cut nice clean holes, which makes scoring "easier". Lots more experimentation has been done in lead (easier to make lead bullets than jacketed), lots more options to play around with.
Lead is typically cheaper, but it can be a bit more challenging to get a solid performer at 50, jacketed can accomplish that task simpler. Jacketed can also be run with a bullet dropper, where as lead has more challenges.
If starting out I would recommend starting with a popular and available projectile (Zero 185swhp or H&G 68 style cast in lead would be a good place to start, the 185 zero JHP are also excellent) as you can lean on others experiences for starting points. For example the 3.6-4.0 bullseye with the 200gr H&G 68 style bullet is a common lead load, the 185jhp with 4.2-4.4 n310 is a common jacketed load. I would recommend trialing some loads before loading up a bunch.
Full wadcutters are more of a 32/38 thing, HBWC are typically considered the more accurate of the full wadcutters, the main difference is the base is hollow and they are typically of swagged construction.
Far from a complete dissertation, but hopefully helpful.
chiz1180- Posts : 1502
Join date : 2019-05-29
Location : Ohio
Allan Campbell, BE Mike, bruce martindale, jmoore and brand-new like this post
Re: How does one best choose a projectile contour or construct for bullseye shooting?
thank you both....very grateful
brand-new- Posts : 156
Join date : 2022-01-12
Allan Campbell and John Dervis like this post
Re: How does one best choose a projectile contour or construct for bullseye shooting?
The previously mentioned thread on different loads.
Pet Loads of Top Shooters & Loads from the past. (bullseyeforum.net)
Pet Loads of Top Shooters & Loads from the past. (bullseyeforum.net)
DA/SA- Posts : 1505
Join date : 2017-10-09
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BE Mike, jmoore and brand-new like this post
Re: How does one best choose a projectile contour or construct for bullseye shooting?
Way back in the 1960s much of this was worked out by then. The best results were found using 185 grain to 200 grain bullets loaded to around 775-820 fps. Powders were selected from “fast” side because they metered well and were forgiving (a bit, but that was not known until the 1990s). Bullet shapes had to be accurate and feed well in 1911 pistols. In commercial applications, the factories also found that shapes affected machine production.
If I was just starting out to load 45 ACP, I’d get a 500 round box of 200 SWC cast from a place like Magnus or Missouri Bullets, a pound of Winchester WST powder and load 50-100 rounds and learn the potholes of reloading pistol ammo.
In 1960s the NRA published an article on “Handloading the 45 ACP” which was slanted towards accuracy. The bullets used were these. Note that they are primarily Semi-Wad-Cutter (SWC) design. Bullets (b.) and (c.) are true Hensley & Gibbs #68 designs. Most of the commercially cast 200 SWC are clones of (c.). Bullet (h.) was included because at that era CMP required the use of issued 230 gr ball ammunition used in their matches. The image below the bullets shows the crimping styles. Taper crimp for cast and “straightening the case mouth” (a.) are preferred.
Below is an image of the two types of 45 ACP loaded by Winchester in the late 1970s note that the 185 FMC Match is similar to bullet (a.) in the image above. The bullet above is a duplicate above of this bullet and both were accurate. However it has been found to be a bit fussy to load. The Winchester bullet is long out of production and since the CMP no longer issues ammo, most people use a 185 JHP like the Nosler 185 Custom Competition HP.
If I was just starting out to load 45 ACP, I’d get a 500 round box of 200 SWC cast from a place like Magnus or Missouri Bullets, a pound of Winchester WST powder and load 50-100 rounds and learn the potholes of reloading pistol ammo.
In 1960s the NRA published an article on “Handloading the 45 ACP” which was slanted towards accuracy. The bullets used were these. Note that they are primarily Semi-Wad-Cutter (SWC) design. Bullets (b.) and (c.) are true Hensley & Gibbs #68 designs. Most of the commercially cast 200 SWC are clones of (c.). Bullet (h.) was included because at that era CMP required the use of issued 230 gr ball ammunition used in their matches. The image below the bullets shows the crimping styles. Taper crimp for cast and “straightening the case mouth” (a.) are preferred.
Below is an image of the two types of 45 ACP loaded by Winchester in the late 1970s note that the 185 FMC Match is similar to bullet (a.) in the image above. The bullet above is a duplicate above of this bullet and both were accurate. However it has been found to be a bit fussy to load. The Winchester bullet is long out of production and since the CMP no longer issues ammo, most people use a 185 JHP like the Nosler 185 Custom Competition HP.
Wobbley- Admin
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Re: How does one best choose a projectile contour or construct for bullseye shooting?
i am so appreciative for the information...and even more for the time and effort everyone dedicated to help
thank you
thank you
brand-new- Posts : 156
Join date : 2022-01-12
Re: How does one best choose a projectile contour or construct for bullseye shooting?
For matches, I used Nosler 185 grain jacketed hollow-points for the long line and 185 gr. lead swaged semi-wadcutter hollow points for the short line. For training, I stuck with the swaged lead 185 gr. bullets. In pistol shooting the condition of the base of the bullet is very important. Cast bullets can be very good, but for the long line, they must be separated to insure that the bases look good and that there are no other flaws, like air pockets. For the short line, just about any decent bullet and load will shoot in the ten ring. The old saying is,"talcum powder and bubble gum will group at 25 yards". Of course, nothing will group if the pistol isn't capable.
BE Mike- Posts : 2581
Join date : 2011-07-29
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Re: How does one best choose a projectile contour or construct for bullseye shooting?
What works for you?
Every Bullseye gun I have had, 45Auto, 38Super, or 9mm Para, have used a L-SWC for 45--uses 200 gr (tried 185gr, but none of my pistols seemed to like them). All were hand-cast and inspected or Zero swaged, both at hardness of 13.
38 and 9mm used 115gr Zero or Montana Gold JHPs. Old age has hit, so I can't remember the bullet maker that topped Zero.
For S&W model 52, only the discontinued Remington 148gr swaged L-HBWC was any good--tried every swaged and cast wadcutters I could find, but only Remington bullets gave 1" and under groups (had three 52s and they only liked Remington bullets)
Every Bullseye gun I have had, 45Auto, 38Super, or 9mm Para, have used a L-SWC for 45--uses 200 gr (tried 185gr, but none of my pistols seemed to like them). All were hand-cast and inspected or Zero swaged, both at hardness of 13.
38 and 9mm used 115gr Zero or Montana Gold JHPs. Old age has hit, so I can't remember the bullet maker that topped Zero.
For S&W model 52, only the discontinued Remington 148gr swaged L-HBWC was any good--tried every swaged and cast wadcutters I could find, but only Remington bullets gave 1" and under groups (had three 52s and they only liked Remington bullets)
noylj- Posts : 433
Join date : 2012-03-09
Age : 75
Location : SW USA
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Re: How does one best choose a projectile contour or construct for bullseye shooting?
For 9MM I like the RMR match winner 124gn, a lower cost jacked bullet, and they are accurate. 9MM is unforgiving; crimp, COL your barrel, are all factors. And there seems to be more variation then with 45acp re barrels and head spacing.
9mm 147's are nice to shoot but no all 147gn LFP are the same , I am finding that out now.
4.0 +/- 0.2 gn for a HG 138 is were I would start , Zero SWC or JHPLSW are lasers COL 1.23 to 1.25 Taper crimp
9mm 147's are nice to shoot but no all 147gn LFP are the same , I am finding that out now.
4.0 +/- 0.2 gn for a HG 138 is were I would start , Zero SWC or JHPLSW are lasers COL 1.23 to 1.25 Taper crimp
rich.tullo- Posts : 2006
Join date : 2015-03-27
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Re: How does one best choose a projectile contour or construct for bullseye shooting?
thank you for the information.
i did pick up some Zero Conical JHP 125gn projectiles....they look very nice.
I'm embarrassed to admit that i'm not familiar with several of the terms/abreviations.
I understand that SWC is semi wad cutter
however, I wasn't sure what JHPLSW stood for...jacketed hollow point Lead? Swaged? W?
i did pick up some Zero Conical JHP 125gn projectiles....they look very nice.
I'm embarrassed to admit that i'm not familiar with several of the terms/abreviations.
I understand that SWC is semi wad cutter
however, I wasn't sure what JHPLSW stood for...jacketed hollow point Lead? Swaged? W?
brand-new- Posts : 156
Join date : 2022-01-12
Re: How does one best choose a projectile contour or construct for bullseye shooting?
JHPLSW = jacketed hollow point lead semi-wadcutter
Dulcmrman- Posts : 53
Join date : 2017-12-29
Age : 77
Location : Prescott, AZ
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Re: How does one best choose a projectile contour or construct for bullseye shooting?
thank you
i know some of my questions must seem silly.... but i do appreciate all the information.
i know some of my questions must seem silly.... but i do appreciate all the information.
brand-new- Posts : 156
Join date : 2022-01-12
Re: How does one best choose a projectile contour or construct for bullseye shooting?
Full lead wadcutters
Lead SWC
JHP
9x19: 115 gr JHP
38 Super: 121-124 gr JHP
38 spec (revolver or M52): swaged 148 gr L-HBWC (Meister or Zero
45 Auto: H&G #68 cloned (long nose) 185 or 200 gr swaged L-SWC (Zero, been Meister swaged are actually Zero)
You can get close to swaged accuracy, except in the M-52, with very careful quality control, but you aren't likely to surpass it
Lead SWC
JHP
9x19: 115 gr JHP
38 Super: 121-124 gr JHP
38 spec (revolver or M52): swaged 148 gr L-HBWC (Meister or Zero
45 Auto: H&G #68 cloned (long nose) 185 or 200 gr swaged L-SWC (Zero, been Meister swaged are actually Zero)
You can get close to swaged accuracy, except in the M-52, with very careful quality control, but you aren't likely to surpass it
noylj- Posts : 433
Join date : 2012-03-09
Age : 75
Location : SW USA
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Re: How does one best choose a projectile contour or construct for bullseye shooting?
It all boils down to experimentation. You load various styles of bullets and powder then go to the range and shoot. You'll find out what your gun likes best. Most use lead semi wad in your 45. Try different powder and even primers. Of course this all depends on how deep you want to go into it. I currently load @3.8 grains of clays behind either 185 or 200 grain and I don't worry about what sets it off. Good luck!
Larry2520- Posts : 143
Join date : 2017-05-07
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