Out of battery detonation 9/08

Today a shooter had an out of battery detonation.  A piece of the casing cut the pinky finger of his left hand (he's right handed), fortunately that was resolved with a paper towel and a large band aid.  After everything settled down I went over to talk to him and here's what transpired:

He was shooting his father's 1911 .38 WC pistol (a "Curtis custom") when a round did not go off.  He dropped the magazine and as he was retracting the slide (left thumb and forefinger on serrations, elbow pointed towards muzzle) when the round suddenly exploded.  

He was shooting old, moderately tarnished Western factory .38 wadcutter ammunition.  My first thought was that he had a hang fire--he wasn't familiar with the term and admitted that he did not wait 30 seconds (more or less) to clear the weapon, so the round could have detonated as it cleared the chamber.

I saw that the nose of the wadcutter itself had a deep semi circular gouge in it--now I'm wondering if his grip had slipped while retracting the slide and the round got caught against the barrel and somehow the firing pin set off the round.  He had removed the magazine so the round may not have been lined up with the barrel ramp.  The bore was clear of obstructions and the bullet and pieces of the case were lying on the bench.

Has anyone seen anything like this before?  

Also, I posted this info to remind/make people aware of the dangers when handling firearms and of hang fires--oddly, the senior range officer had never heard of the term hang fire.

What does the primer look like?

Yup, that will ruin your afternoon.

NukeMMC wrote:What does the primer look like?

Sorry, I didn't think to take that picture.  I kinda wanted to not be too intrusive but 
I know one of the ROs gave him a plastic bag for the parts--if I see him next week I'll ask about the parts.

There are only two things that could possibly be related that I know of. The first is that those W-W .38 SPL brass cases are thin and over the years, I've noticed that on rare occasion they would have a small lengthwise split after firing. The other is that many, many years ago (mid '80's), a trainee at FLETC was trying to remove those cartridges from the styrofoam. He slipped the cartridges from the cardboard and started beating the cartridge laden styrofoam on a wooden bench with the primers down. One cartridge ignited. He scared his buddies and everyone in earshot, but fortunately no one was injured.

Sounds like you diagnosed it right…slide going forward and striking an already compromised primer. I will reseat high primers on my reloads but not if it’s been struck and didn’t fire.
It looks like the bullet was resting against the barrel hood as it went off. My bet is theres no primer left in the shell as it blew out backwards and bullet fell thru magwell to the bench.
I always advise caution with misfires, unlike the action pistol guys who quickly clear and continue. I also insist that the muzzle is pointed down range when loading or dropping the slide.

Glad no one was seriously hurt. Uncontained ammo just pops off with no bullet velocity

Firing pin has a spring to retract it? How about the extractor contacting the primer when the slide slipped out of his hand?

Gun off the bench and level downrange when racked. I've seen way too many with it resting on the bench, the grip and muzzle end of slide in contact.

That ammo is relatively old.  I say that from the box.  The issue here is that primers that old can occasionally hangfire.  I’ve never seen a hangfire take longer than 10 seconds.

Hang fire, it's not just a Stones' tune off of Tattoo You.

Always "hang" out"30 seconds with the gun pointed safely down range before inspectIng your weapon. I did not know that this wasn't widely known by experienced shooters.

Yikes that had to be an immediate bowel evacuation. Glad not worse than the small injury.

While on the topic of incidents, good time to be remind to have stuff on hand to take care of potential problems. Stuff happens, fortune favors the prepared.

Hey Chiz or anyone else who knows this stuff, i need to take a bleed class offered by oir club, but quick question- how easy are these to deploy? Is it a lot to learn? Sorry my first aid is woefully out of date and this js a wake up call.

RodJ wrote:Hey Chiz or anyone else who knows this stuff, i need to take a bleed class offered by oir club, but quick question- how easy are these to deploy?  Is it a lot to learn?  Sorry my first aid is woefully out of date and this js a wake up call.

I am far from the most qualified person to speak on the difficulty/how much to learn, but I have two recommendations keep a phone (lots of people I know leave their phone in their vehicle) with you at the range and find a basic class to get a understanding of what is involved. 

The hardest thing to do when things happen is to stay calm, it is not something everyone can do easily.

RodJ....what chiz1180 said above....also alot of clubs/organizations  offer "Stop the Bleed" courses.  They usually ru a couple hours and usually cheap (most of the time free). You can find one with the associated link.   https://cms.bleedingcontrol.org/class/search

RodJ wrote:Hey Chiz or anyone else who knows this stuff, i need to take a bleed class offered by oir club, but quick question- how easy are these to deploy?  Is it a lot to learn?  Sorry my first aid is woefully out of date and this js a wake up call.

Your basic Army or Marine infantryman gets a Combat Lifesaver course.  If they can grasp it, so can you.
Get a good stop the bleed kit from https://tacmedsolutions.com/
Add a SOF-T tourniquet and you can handle most any GSW you'll likely encounter.  But as said, the training is #1

RodJ wrote:Hang fire,  it's not just a Stones' tune off of Tattoo You.

Always "hang" out"30 seconds with the gun pointed safely down range before inspectIng your weapon.  I did not know that this wasn't widely known by experienced shooters.

Yikes that had to be an immediate bowel evacuation.  Glad not worse than the small injury.

The Army used to be diligent about pointing out the possibility of a hang fire and the procedure to follow. I think that old time shooters also were in the know about it. Maybe the new crop isn't clued in.

NukeMMC wrote:

RodJ wrote:Hey Chiz or anyone else who knows this stuff, i need to take a bleed class offered by oir club, but quick question- how easy are these to deploy?  Is it a lot to learn?  Sorry my first aid is woefully out of date and this js a wake up call.

Your basic Army or Marine infantryman gets a Combat Lifesaver course.  If they can grasp it, so can you.
Get a good stop the bleed kit from https://tacmedsolutions.com/
Add a SOF-T tourniquet and you can handle most any GSW you'll likely encounter.  But as said, the training is #1

It's been a lot of years. This is what I recall: "Stop the bleeding, check the breathing and treat for shock."

NukeMMC wrote:

Your basic Army or Marine infantryman gets a Combat Lifesaver course.  If they can grasp it, so can you.

Not sure if it was intended, but if so, that was funny. Lol

Thanks for all the responses and to the OP for raising this issue.  This training is on my priority "Do" list.

Serious issue ... but I recall something from way ... way ... back.

'In case of bleeding from the head, apply a tourniquet around the neck...

NukeMMC wrote:

RodJ wrote:Hey Chiz or anyone else who knows this stuff, i need to take a bleed class offered by oir club, but quick question- how easy are these to deploy?  Is it a lot to learn?  Sorry my first aid is woefully out of date and this js a wake up call.

Your basic Army or Marine infantryman gets a Combat Lifesaver course.  If they can grasp it, so can you.
Get a good stop the bleed kit from https://tacmedsolutions.com/
Add a SOF-T tourniquet and you can handle most any GSW you'll likely encounter.  But as said, the training is #1

I will add a slight bit of devils advocate to this, civilians and service members are different. Combat (and related training) is a "known" entity of being in the service. A civilian perspective is not the same. To be brutally honest, some people (both service members and civilians) have significant issues dealing with blood/traumatic injury situations. What is easy for some is almost impossibly hard for others. "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" is extremely relevant here, but it also doesn't hurt to stack the odds in the favor of the best outcome in every way you can, promote safe practices and do everything in your own ability to promote good outcomes if things go in a less than favorable direction.

LOL, another one bites the dust...same public range, same general time, exact same station, one week later (yesterday, 9/15/24):


.40 S&W case head blowout, primer nowhere to be found, magazine blown out.  Fortunately the shooter wasn't hurt.  He says he "might" have double charged a round; he was loading Titegroup.  

One of the RSOs told me this was the third incident he's seen take place at Station 15; the first was a 10mm that blew up (I'll get more details on that incident next week, providing no one blows up another pistol.

I guess I'm a bit superstitious--I won't shoot at #15!

Or be judicious about reloading…l have pulled down more than a few rounds after becoming distracted.

About 14 years ago, I had a Clark .38Spl Colt Kit gun do something very similar in practice.  I shoot left handed and had a hard chamber jam due to lead buildup in the chamber.   When I cleared it the cartridge partially ejected and then he slide started to close capturing the nose of the bullet on the barrel hood, and the extractor hitting the primer causing an out of battery discharge.  Unfortunately my right hand was right there and took shrapnel through my trigger tendon.   I had to have immediate hand surgery, but was lucky to have essentially a full recovery.

I was at a gun counter looking for ammo about ten years ago and the attendant asked me how I lost my finger. So I told my story:"I was in an industrial accident and lost the little finger on my left hand in 2009." He held up his left hand, as if to high five, and dispalyed the same didget loss. He was in basic training(vietnam war/ M16) and when ordered to unload, he dropped his magazine and with his left hand over the ejection port, extracted the unfired bullet. It blew his little finger clean off! Yes, it could have been much worse. 

So since that conversation, I never extract, with my hand over the election port, with any firearm.

Obviously I mostly shoot 1911s, so from that day forward, the slide is cycled from the rear-always.

This site has been a benefit to me-thanks very much

Tom in Oregon

jc2721 wrote:LOL, another one bites the dust...same public range, same general time, exact same station, one week later (yesterday, 9/15/24):


.40 S&W case head blowout, primer nowhere to be found, magazine blown out.  Fortunately the shooter wasn't hurt.  He says he "might" have double charged a round; he was loading Titegroup.  

One of the RSOs told me this was the third incident he's seen take place at Station 15; the first was a 10mm that blew up (I'll get more details on that incident next week, providing no one blows up another pistol.

I guess I'm a bit superstitious--I won't shoot at #15!

We had a "detonation" at our weekly BE league about a month go. The case and magazine looked EXACTLY like that. It was a double charge. When a case lets go at the thicker web area and the primer seeks different environs, it is almost always an overcharge creating extremely excessive pressure. The half dozen obstructed barrel incidents I've witnessed over the years never blew the case and/or mag out.