Bevel base blues

I’ve had a really bad experience with a recent order of 158 SWC’s (dinner plate size groups at fifty through a Ransom Rest). I’m confident that size and hardness were well- matched to cylinder throats since those same specs have proven themselves with every other cast bullet, both made by myself and purchased, and the load itself is proven with my similarly designed, home-cast 158 flat base bullet.   So, being the first bevel based bullet I’ve ever used, I blamed that. Similar with my 45 bullets, I’ve always bought and cast plain based.  Now after maybe five years I’m running low on 45’s and need to place a sizable bulk order. I may have hastily blamed the poor accuracy with the 38 on the bevel because the general appearance as well as the gouges and other nonconformities I’m seeing around the bases, are worse than any bullet I’ve ever purchased.
I’m looking to this group for real data from shooters either with M/HM classifications or who have done sufficient Ransom Rest testing to comment on accuracy loss (if any) using bevel base bullets in both 38 and 45 calibers.  The 45 is more critical as these are running very low and I don’t cast for 45 anymore. For the 38, if necessary, I can just keep casting my 358311 bullets forever. Also, if you DO have good results with bevel base bullets, be aware that my experience further back than I can remember, has almost exclusively been with Zero’s so if you don’t mind sharing brand names, I’m thanking you in advance. 
Thanks guys. 
Ed

My experience is that accuracy in the 38 Special depends on which bullet is used. I've had good luck with ACME 148 grain double bevel base wadcutters (see the link below) in my S&W revolvers. These bullets produce 1.5" 50-shot groups at 25 yards (with the right powder) fired from a Ransom Rest in a 7" Model 686.

(the link reads 9mm but it takes you to the 38 caliber bullets)

https://acmebullet.com/product/9mm-115-rn-nlg-coated-16/

I've Ransom Rested one load with Blue Bullets 158 grain SWC, which appear to have a small bevel, in a 4" S&W Model 67, and it was not very good, shooting 18 shots at 25 yards into a little over 4".

Even with HBWCs, my guns are very particular about what they like and don't shoot them equally.

My k38 was also very particular. I used some 158gn HSM bevel base bullets that I dialed in well. Then moved to Missouri of same type but a bit more bevel on the base, they did not shoot well. Then moved back to HSM when they became available again, they did not shoot well. No other changes. I think if you have a good performing cast bullet, make a lot of them and stick with it.

What powder and charge, and primer? And you wrote you are confident on the diameter, which is a measurement, but what makes you confident on the hardness? Not doubting you, but sometimes developing good handloads is a three-dimensional chess game. Brass not so much, but bullet design, hardness and lube, then powder and charge, primer, seating depth and crimp diameter were all in play when developing my .38 Special loads (in a K38). I tested dozens of combinations over a dozen Ransom sessions to arrive at an acceptable 50-yard load for NRA Distinguished Revolver, which requires any .38 caliber, but a SWC or RN bullet. It was a pain. As a sidenote, for CMP Distinguished revolver, which allows any centerfire revolver 9mm/.38 to .45 (and unlike NRA Dist Rev, allows .38 Special-velocity loads in .357 brass), I tested the load my 1911 Rock River wadgun loves in my S&W 625 (a .45 ACP wheelgun). Turns out it shoots 2" or less at 50 out of my Smith. The ACP is SOOO forgiving/easy. Plus big holes for nicking the next scoring ring.

I'm interested in the other .38spl recipe details.

My rest testing doesn't find an issue with beveled base .45acp loads. .45acp is really forgiving. .38spl is a cranky jerk.

Thanks Rob.
If you've found some casters' products more accurate than others, please share.  Otherwise I see Oregon Trail, Summers, and Missouri all seem to have 200 gr bullets in stock so I'll head to one of those guys. 
Ed

[quote="96wa6"]What powder and charge, and primer? And you wrote you are confident on the diameter, which is a measurement, but what makes you confident on the hardness? Not doubting you, but sometimes developing good handloads is a three-dimensional chess game. Brass not so much, but bullet design, hardness and lube, then powder and charge, primer, seating depth and crimp diameter were all in play when developing my .38 Special loads (in a K38). I tested dozens of combinations over a dozen Ransom sessions to arrive at an acceptable 50-yard load for NRA Distinguished Revolver, which requires any .38 caliber, but a SWC or RN bullet. It was a pain. As a sidenote, for CMP Distinguished revolver, which allows any centerfire revolver 9mm/.38 to .45 (and unlike NRA Dist Rev, allows .38 Special-velocity loads in .357 brass), I tested the load my 1911 Rock River wadgun loves in my S&W 625 (a .45 ACP wheelgun). Turns out it shoots 2" or less at 50 out of my Smith. The ACP is SOOO forgiving/easy. Plus big holes for nicking the next scoring ring.[/quote]
Opposite experience with me and my 14-3.  Once Doug Phillips uniformed all my cylinder throats to within .0005 of each other, I can't seem to find a load that WILL NOT group under three inches at fifty; I can vary bullet (all flat based), hardness, powder, COL, crimp...If it leaves the muzzle at 740-780 and has BAC lube on it, it shoots.  But then this particular 158 BB comers along and after verifying that the hardness and diameter are the same as my own proven cast loads, the Ransom Rest couldn't keep six shots on a large frying pan.  Since lube can have a dramatic impact on accuracy I also melted off the factory lube and re-applied my trusted brand (BAC) with no improvement. Upon inspection I can say that these are the most beat up bullets with the worst looking sprues that I've ever seen and it is to this that I am attributing the poor performance since it looks like folks here are getting good results with their BB designs.

Well, if you've got all those variables under control and the recipe you're using is great with other bullets, then you're right, it has to be the bullet. I also agree with what you also said about the sprues and "beat-upedness", that it might be their general quality/lack thereof (and the hidden flaws, which I will bet exist) rather than just the bevel base.

inthebeech wrote:If you've found some casters' products more accurate than others, please share.  Otherwise I see Oregon Trail, Summers, and Missouri all seem to have 200 gr bullets in stock so I'll head to one of those guys. 
Ed

I was shooting Brazos 200 LSWC and recently switched to Zero swaged 200 LSWC. (Someone had them on sale for ten or eleven cents each) Very happy with them and have now dispensed 500 of them downrange without a trace of lead in my Kart barrel. (I have seen barrel leading to be the most common complaint about Zero swaged)

Greetings,
 
Test target fired at 50 yards with Zero 185 Lead SWC HP.

Factory Gold Cup barrel.

20 shots.

Cheers,

Dave

Sort cast bullets by weight.  Light bullets have air bubbles.

[quote="243winxb"]Sort cast bullets by weight. [/quote]

Not unless Dillon comes out with an automated weight-sorting attachment for the 550.  There’s an idea; casters charge a small premium for guaranteed maximum weight ranges. Yes, I’m that lazy.  :|

I'm a pretty capable caster and the 38 has driven me nuts over time. I went over to 158gr swaged zeros and my troubles went away, easially holding 10 ring at 50 yards. Now that I have both revolver distinguished badges, maybe I'll play with my home cast some more.

10sandxs wrote:I'm a pretty capable  caster and the 38 has driven me nuts over time. I went over to 158gr swaged zeros and my troubles went away, easially holding 10 ring at 50 yards. Now that I have both revolver distinguished badges, maybe I'll play with my home cast some more.

What profiles did you try?

chiz1180 wrote:

10sandxs wrote:I'm a pretty capable  caster and the 38 has driven me nuts over time. I went over to 158gr swaged zeros and my troubles went away, easially holding 10 ring at 50 yards. Now that I have both revolver distinguished badges, maybe I'll play with my home cast some more.

What profiles did you try?

A few different semi wadcutters. Might go to round nose, but dontbrrally want to buy a mold, so I'll take a bit more are in casting next time. I get spoiled with the 45 as it's easy...

10sandxs wrote:

chiz1180 wrote:

10sandxs wrote:I'm a pretty capable  caster and the 38 has driven me nuts over time. I went over to 158gr swaged zeros and my troubles went away, easially holding 10 ring at 50 yards. Now that I have both revolver distinguished badges, maybe I'll play with my home cast some more.

What profiles did you try?

A few different semi wadcutters. Might go to round nose, but dontbrrally want to buy a mold, so I'll take a bit more  are in casting next time. I get spoiled with the 45 as it's easy...

This is probably the most daunting part. It is hard to find trustworthy data on the accuracy potential of  the various 38 profiles available.

Greetings,

Ask, and you shall receive...

RCBS 38-158-RN mould with NO CRIMP GROOVE.

Targets fired at 50 yards in a modified K-38 barrel.

Cheers,

Dave

EDIT, Shame on me for not recording the alloy used. Most likely, I used 20:1.

REMEMBER, document your test targets.

Dave,

The data is much appreciated. I previously have had good success with the Brazos RN, looking into other options.

Christopher

Most any commercial cast bullet should be the same as the Brazo's were if cast using the Cast Master equipment. 
Hand cast is a different subject.

Right after Star Bullet closed and my supply of Star 185gr LWCHP bullets were used up I saw where Deta Precision had bought the Star equipment and was producing Star Special Match bullets, don't know what they did to the equipment or if it was a QC problem, but quality was terrible and I will say no more.