Lowest charge for 45ACP 200gr SWC

It's been over 10 years since the last thread, .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?, and with NLG and Hi-Tech coats I was wondering how low have you guys have gone?

I say 200gr SWC but am interested in other sizes and shapes as well

I can't do load development until end of November/December and am going to live vicariously through your success/failure


Please list:

1) Bullet brand, shape, and weight
2) Charge weight
3) What powder
4) Crimp
5) Target grouping, distance, if performed


Thanks!


Mark

3.6 WST, 200 lswc, AXI 1911. 12# RS

Let you know Saturday!

james r chapman wrote:3.6 WST, 200 lswc, AXI 1911. 12# RS

Let you know Saturday!

After reading the thread Rod posted, I’m looking forward to trying:
3.3 WST, 200 LSWC Hi-tek, 1:13 KMM by JE, 10} RS

My current training round is 3.4 Titegroup and a 230 LRN bullet.  Velocity is 650-670 fps.  It’s good enough to shoot in local matches…

All that said, there is a lower limit based on practicality. Wolff Gunsprings has recoil springs as low as 7 pounds.  There is a point that the recoil spring will no longer lockup reliably at the end of the “counter-recoil” of the slide.  That seems to be in the 10 pounds or so range.

It’s not crazy low but 3.85 gr of N310 gives good 50 yard accuracy and doesn’t kick too bad. It’s softer shooting than 3.9 clays which was my previous 50 yard load.

Good luck.
John

200g coated swc w/ 3.9 N310 is what I use at 50yds but very best in ransom rest is 4.2g N310 (8/10 were in 1" c-c).

I’m running 3.6 Clays (really just a tiny bit more, 10 throws average 36.2-to-36.3) under swaged 200 LSWC Zeros. Shoulder depth 0.920-to-0.922” and a crimp of 0.465” on mixed brass.

Gun: SARO with RRA heavy combo rib and Sig Romeo 5 optic.  EGW bushing on stock barrel. 19# mainspring, 11# recoil spring.

3.5 Clays would only run with the gun dripping oil, and even then, some failures to lock back.  3.6 is reliable even when dirty.

Accuracy has only been evaluated at 25 yards off bags.  Sub-inch center-to-center consistently.  3.8 grains was even better, but thumpier. 3.6 is soft.

4.1gns of N310 under 200grn SWC from Blue Bullets.

JRV wrote:I’m running 3.6 Clay (really just a tiny bit more, 10 throws average 36.2-to-36.3) under swaged 200 LSWC Zeros. 

Just loaded up exactly the same for my slide mount 1911 last evening since I have lots of Clays. 3.8 WST or 3.8 N310 works well too.

Using 2.8 BE with swaged 200 LSWC Zeros for the frame mount 1911.

DA/SA----  What are  the crimp and length dimensions?

funski wrote:DA/SA----  What are  the crimp and length dimensions?

.463" crimp and .920" to the shoulder.

james r chapman wrote:3.6 WST, 200 lswc, AXI 1911. 12# RS

Let you know Saturday!

How did it go?

Fair warning…slow speed stuff is very susceptible to trigger induced motion and any other gun movement. HM and M won’t see it but you’re in Air Pistol territory; it’s an Olympic sport for a reason.

Dave Lange recommends that he first number in any 45 cal charge weight is 4. It’s good to train with though.

Bruce, what a great post!

So many folks equate a soft shooting load with a better result.

That has definitely not been my experience with a 45.

But, I do admit that, just recently, when I finally got a barrel and ammo that worked, a 32SWL (especially for winter indoor 25yd/50ft league stuff, can work amazingly well.

But, for outdoor, 50 yards. Muscle up you old duffers, ya need to shoot reasonably stout 45ACP as good as ya can!

I'm 69 and I know "It's true, it's true"!!!!!

MkFiji wrote:

james r chapman wrote:3.6 WST, 200 lswc, AXI 1911. 12# RS

Let you know Saturday!

How did it go?

Shot just fine indoors. Just make sure you thoroughly clean the gun. Especially the chamber. Everything needs to move freely.

Jim

My personal experience is similar to Roy’s….the marginal increase in recoil is no big deal. 4.5g BE behind a 185g bullet is still a favorite long line load. 4.2g for the short line. It’s a 45 and it’s going to recoil more than a 22 or a 32, can’t fight physics (unless, of course, you subscribe to the new progressive sciences, then just carry on, carrying on!). If one shoots 2700’s, it’s at least 1/3 of the match and for some 2/3’s….training with one that functions reliably, will pay much higher dividends. Just my 2 cents.

Ill toss in my opinion here as well. The only guns that I have seen in person that would reliably run super light loads reliably are in a different class of build from what the majority of us run and likewise require more attention to service needs. Very few shooters I know that regularly shoot well shoot super light loads. 

If the gun doesn't run, at any point in the match, you negate any advantage to a super light load. Just think of double alibi during rapid, kind of a sucks doesn't it. Remember the loads we typically shoot are already reduced loads. To run light loads successfully you need to conserve all the energy from the shot to function the gun, this means solid grip and a clean gun.

Here are a few anecdotal experiences running lighter loads:
-lighter loads often are not as clean running as more "standard" loads, this means you will need to be more diligent in a cleaning regimen.
-lighter loads are more suspect to minor loading errors and inconsistencies, for example a 0.05-0.1 gr difference in powder charge is more significant in lower charge weights than higher. 
-I have two "primary" wad guns, one that I run 4.0BE with a 185swhp, and one that I run 4.4n310 with a 185jhp (I run one load for both 50 and 25). The lead gun shoots noticeably softer/slower, yet my scores average the same between both guns.
-In the past I ran 3.8BE with 185swhp (different gun than my currently shooting) for the short line and 4.2BE with a 185swhp on the long line. In that particular gun that combo seemed to work, but the logistics of two loads was more hassle that it was worth for me.    
-I have tested down to 3.6BE with a 185swhp, it would run, but it was not as forgiving (think loosening grip over the string) to shoot as 3.8BE with the same bullet.

DA/SA wrote:

funski wrote:DA/SA----  What are  the crimp and length dimensions?

.463" crimp and .920" to the shoulder.

Does your frame mount need to dripping wet with oil for function with 2.8gr?

How often are you needing to clean it with the low of a charge?

Every gun will be different with regard towards minimum load operation. It’s not just the recoil spring although thats the biggest player. Mainspring, firing pin stop to hammer geometry, slide to frame fit and friction, pin to lug fit and travel distance, and bbl top lug and hood fit. Bullet has to go thru the target. We had a M or HM Cordy Rich from NY who both set and broke again a National Record the same day at Camp Perry using something like 3.2 BE. I saw the target at his shop, a 200-19x if memory serves.

MkFiji wrote:

DA/SA wrote:

funski wrote:DA/SA----  What are  the crimp and length dimensions?

.463" crimp and .920" to the shoulder.

Does your frame mount need to dripping wet with oil for function with 2.8gr?

How often are you needing to clean it with the low of a charge?

Not dripping at all. I lightly oil the rails, barrel bushing, and barrel hood before shooting a match and nothing after that.

I clean it about every 200 rounds and it has never had a malfunction with 2.8 BE. I first tried 3.2 N310 and had an occasional failure to eject. I have also found that it runs on 3.5 WST but no lower without failure to eject.

As to not being forgiving, It sure seems forgiving to me! When I first started shooting it, I shot ten rounds with my slide mount at 50 yds and shot a 93. Picked up the frame mount and shot a 94.

Here's a sustained fire target from the last match. I inadvertently got on the trigger a little too hard during recoil and double tapped the 3rd shot on the first string. Guess which shot that was?