Red dot sights--focus on target or dot?

by knightimac Wed May 07, 2014 9:35 am

Hi folks

Just a question as to what techinque you use when using a red dot sight. Do you focus on the red dot or upon the target when sighting?

Which technique is better and why?

If you are focusing on the dot, does the red dot need to be in the center of the tube?

Can you use the scope with the dot turned off and only focus on the target thru the tube?

I look forward to your advice.

Paul

by Jack H Wed May 07, 2014 10:21 am

knightimac wrote:Hi folks

Just a question as to what techinque you use when using a red dot sight. Do you focus on the red dot or upon the target when sighting?

Test this yourself. Point your finger and focus on the fingernail. Keep the focus and extend to touch at an icon on your screen. Now touch again but focus on the icon.
I like to use a large dot with just enough intensity to see depending on conditions. Look at the target through the transparent dot.

Which technique is better and why?

If you are focusing on the dot, does the red dot need to be in the center of the tube?

Not as long as you are totally consistent. But centered is best IMO

Can you use the scope with the dot turned off and only focus on the target thru the tube?

Rather counterproductive to precision

I look forward to your advice.

Paul

by DavidR Wed May 07, 2014 11:08 am

Centering the dot has a lot to do with the dot, all work best when centered, some cheaper ones have a lot of parallax and that can be worse if not centered, as to dot or target, its what works best for you. IMO you cant do one or the other, they are both always in play and since the X on the target is what you are trying to hit, and the dot if zeroed correctly represents your bullet whatever lets you keep the dot closest to the X when the gun fires is best. There are many theories on the best way to do that as well.

by **Rob Kovach** Wed May 07, 2014 2:00 pm

There are other posts that ask the same question that might have other answers that you are interested in.

I find myself shooting when the dot isn't centered and it goes where the dot was. I use 1" ultradots and it doesn't effect the accuracy, but other optics may vary.

by LenV Wed May 07, 2014 10:38 pm

Hi Paul,
The reason you can't turn the dot off is, unlike a fine riflescope that has a constantly centered reticle the dot represents the impact point of the bullet but is not constantly centered.How many times have you turned on the red dot and couldn't find the dot? You could see the target just fine but where was that dang thing.The dot was pointing where the bullet was going to hit, which is not on the target if you can't find it. So "no" don't try using the tube to line up without the dot on.

Len

by BHeintz Thu May 08, 2014 2:33 am

For me, focusing on the black of the targets works best, not the dot. I don't really think there is always a "best" way to do something, it's more about figuring out what works for you. OldMaster64 pretty well summed up your other question, the dot represents the point of impact, weather it's centered in your line of sight through the scope, or not.

by knightimac Thu May 08, 2014 6:58 am

Thanks for your responses thus far.

I had taken a hiatus from this sport for about 10 years. Back in 90's and early 2000, I had shot a 625 revolver and a Ruger MKII with red dots. I had always tried to make the dot bright without distorting it. I also try to keep it in the center of the target and tube while squeezing the trigger. I have always treated the red dot like I would the front sight when shooting iron sights.

Fast forward 2014, I am now shooting a Ruger MK III 22/45 and a SpringField 1911 with red dots. I've noticed a tendency for me to jerk/slap the trigger trying to "catch" the shot when I get a perfect sight picture especially at 50 yards. As a result my slow fires range from 70 to 88 over last few weeks. Granted, I'm also rusty as hell right now.

I think I'm going to try and turn down the brightness of the dot and look thru the dot at the target while concentrating more on a steady trigger pull while trying to a minimum amount of wobble. Try and let my subconscious handle things alittle more.

Thanks again for your advice. I'll follow up in a few weeks to let you know how it works out for me.

by knightimac Tue May 20, 2014 10:56 am

Hi All

Tried turning down dot and looking at target. The experiment did not work out well in several range sessions and one league practice shoot.

Especially bad with 45. Yikes!

Decided to make dot extra bright seemed to work better than turning dot lower.

YMMV.

Thanks for suggestions and have a fantastic day my friends.

by Al Tue May 20, 2014 11:25 am

knightimac wrote:Hi All

Tried turning down dot and looking at target. The experiment did not work out well in several range sessions and one league practice shoot.

Especially bad with 45. Yikes!

Decided to make dot extra bright seemed to work better than turning dot lower.

YMMV.

Thanks for suggestions and have a fantastic day my friends.

If I may make a suggestion, don't base any technique on one days results. Keep track of your scores in your notebook and what style you're experimenting with. Shoot that technique for at least a month. If the results aren't there, try changing one other thing and keep track of your changes and how they affect the scores. When I was deciding on Center, 6:00, or sub 6:00 with iron sights I'd use one of them exclusively for at least 2-3 months regardless of the scores. The same holds true when deciding on grip, trigger finger position, dot or target, etc.

by knightimac Thu May 22, 2014 6:56 am

Thanks for your suggestions.

I like the idea of the log book and giving a promising technique more time to develop.

After making the dot dimmer, focusing on target and shooting four times with several hundred rounds downrange using the dim dot, my scores dropped significantly. I even shot below 200 with 45 on one NMC during the league practice shoot when I normally shoot between 240-260 on a NMC. I'm not willing to invest any more time in trying this technique further with such drastic negative feedback.

For years, I ran the middle ground keeping my dot bright but not too bright to distort it and concentrating on the dot like the front sight when shooting iron sights. Having been out of bullseye for a while, I found myself trying to grab shots while dot danced throwing shots to left. I know this is both trigger control and sighting issue.

In regards to this dim the dot and look at the target technique versus concentrating on the dot like the front sight, I think the initial feedback was so negative that I'm likely not going to try dimming the dot again unless coached in person by a master or expert who advocates the approach.

by DavidR Thu May 22, 2014 9:05 am

Try finding a dim dot during rapid fire, that is not what you want to do.

by Ed Hall Fri May 23, 2014 9:42 am

I suggest that you perfect your trigger operation prior to moving past the dot to tube relationship. I like to consider the dot to tube relationship as a "trigger purity indicator." Once you have the operation perfected, then moving to the target can tighten your group. But, since the important activity is at the gun, you should first work there.

by knightimac Tue May 27, 2014 1:38 pm

Worked on dry firing without looking thru dot and then with looking thru dot at 50'. When using dot, I focused on bright dot in training.

Sat in front of TV just working on trigger with and without sighting weapon.

On Saturday, shot several timed fires in 90's. Grouping still slightly to right of X ring. I'm right handed.

Shoooting league tonight with 45.

by C.Perkins Tue May 27, 2014 5:47 pm

I have always focused on the dot.
Have a 1" Ultradot installed on all 3 pistols.
My brightness setting is on "3" for all dots, once in awhile will go to "4" when real bright out here in Arizona.
Have had some say they cannot even see my dot, maybe it is because I use vermillion colored prescription lenses which enhances the red dot ?
I can actually see through the dot onto the black at 50 yards but am really focused on the dot being centered in the black.
Have no problem picking the dot up at the timed and rapid fire stages.

by knightimac Wed May 28, 2014 10:51 am

Colored glasses to enhance dot. Excellent idea. thanks.

Shot 70s slow fires and 80's at short line last night. Still not where I used to be but making progress after my 10 year layoff from BE. No left and low trigger jerking/slapping shots for this right hander last night!
AMEN.

Dry firing again tonight. That poor TV. Smile

by DavidR Wed May 28, 2014 11:35 am

purple makes the black and the dot pop, go to zeni optical on line and if you have your prescription you can buy them for cheap depending on how much you want to pay for frames but they start at less than 10 bucks.

by knightimac Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:16 am

Even though I vowed not to do it because of some bad initial results, I went back and tried dimming the dot for slow fire this past weekend in practice and shooting my club league yesterday morning and evening. Al encouraged me to give the new techniques more time. I really thought about what he said in his post and tried the dim dot technique and look at the target some more.

I used the .22 as my test case for the dim dot since I have limited ammo making capability with the 45 and a fair amount of .22 on hand.

By the way, I also bumped my adjustable dot on .22 up to 8moa when I dimmed it and looked thru the dot at the target at 50 yards. I also left the dot on 8moa for short line though I made the dot a bit brighter so I could get back on target better. Viola I think this combo may be IT. The IT I was looking for to make me more consistent by not trying to grab the shots by slapping the trigger with a small dancing bright dot driving me to react.

Like Al said above, maybe I need to give new things more time and testing.

Dam, I like getting a bit older. It tames my natural hyper Smile

nature.

by DavidR Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:40 am

Maybe its working for you but more like it you are just more focused on the task, you will find out down the road if the scores don't hold up. just remember the zero change a little when you change dot size, so you should get your zero with the size you intend to shoot with, may not make much difference with 22 but 45 it does.

by knightimac Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:53 am

Thanks for your comments.

Over time, The 45 will be more of a challenge for sure AND more proof of any progress or regression on my part.

I'll try and be watchfull about the 45 sight in change with the increase in dot size.

I usually sandbag sight in my guns at 25 yards when making changes. Then I make sight tweaks based on my shooting habits.

The .22 stays same for me at both short and long line as I have Blazer HV ammo. It basically hits very close at both distances.

The .45 usually requires 4-5 clicks up at 50 with my target loads.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

by knightimac Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:01 pm

Well it's been over a month trying the dim large dot (8moa) at 50 yards for slow fire. I've gotten better groups/scores by about 4-6 points on average with dim large dot looking at target (Mid 70's low 80's) versus bright dot concentrating on dot (low 70's to mid 70's).

I finally passed 750 during a weekly 900 with the .22 using dim dot for slow fire portions.

Some times not always, I get it when folks talk about "steering" the dot onto the target area while in the process of depressing the trigger.

A high master who lives here in southeast pa does something slightly different than the two approaches I've tried above. He tries to cover the black with a large dot rather than try and hold a small dot within the confine of the black during slow fire while trying to depress the trigger.

Interesting approach.

Interesting take by the HM and slightly different than both the approaches I have been trying.

by DavidR Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:22 pm

I had a friend who went from marksman to high master in 13 months, he used the older ultradot four dots, he turned the dot to the size that covered the black and said when all he could see was red he fired the shot. If this works for others would just be a guess, the fact that he had so much talent to me means it was more his skill at work than this procedure.

by Larry Lang Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:10 am

Dry fire at a dot that is slightly larger than your optic dot. Can you hold the dot within the black? Apply gradually increasing pressure to the trigger forcing your finger straight back. Work to improve your hold. Do not attempt to steer the dot with your trigger finger. You will no longer be pressing it straight back and the dot will move from you aiming point when the trigger breaks. Bad trigger control trumps a great hold every time.

by knightimac Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:45 pm

Thanks Larry.

I haven't had much consistency with slow fires since getting back into bullseye after a layoff of over 10 years. Me trying to concentrate on holding a bright dot within the black while pulling the trigger during 50 yard slow fires hasn't been working for me.

I'm starting to see some better results by starting a steady trigger press while concentrating on the target instead of the dot. My subconscious mind seems to "steer" the dot onto the black without me concentrating on it. I'm not saying my trigger finger does this. Not really sure how it's getting done since I'm trying not to concentrate on where the dot is rather looking at the target. This seems to stop my urge to try and "grab" the shot like I sometimes did before.

What I know is I've seen more 80+ slow fires instead of 60s and low 70's.

Like you, I have always been told to concentrate on the keeping the dot in the black while maintaining a steady press of the trigger.

Oddly,pressing my trigger steadily while looking at the target and paying less attention to the dot is helping me shoot better 50 yard scores than before.

Go figure.

by knightimac Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:46 pm

Well the end of the outdoor season is coming to a close next week here in SE PA. I'm back to concentrating on a brighter dot for slow fire in last couple of weeks.

Last night I shot 3 slow fires with my stock Springfield in the 80's even with darkness setting in using a brighter dot and concentrating on keeping the dot inside the black while pulling the trigger straight back (traditional dot shooting if there is such a thing).

Maybe going back and forth and trying techniques and the increased attention to technique were really the keys to improvement this summer.

Well now getting ready for indoor. I'll skip dimming the dot and focusing on the target unless I go stale again.

Regards to all Paul Smile

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