AMU is no longer having a Bullseye Team??

First topic message reminder :

This question was asked over on TargetTalk with no responses yet, I thought someone here could answer it.

"Anyone know if this is true. I was told that the AMU is no longer having a Bullseye Team, but training for pistol Combat Matches instead."


http://targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=46886

- Dave

I wonder if the proposal for the new .22lr matches to start rapids and timed at Low Ready is as much a reference to anticipated targets as international style.

Rob Kovach wrote:When shooting with lights, those shooters aren't focused on their sights so they can see the lights.  Unless they change our sport so the shooters are at "low ready" until the lights change, I don't see how it's going to work.

sure thing Rob, just for the readers knowledge how many International events do you shoot regularly??

What does that matter?  
The green light is on the bottom of the target.  If the gun is covering the green light, how are you going to see the green light when you are focused on your front sight post and your gun and arm are completely covering up the light?
You don't have to be an Olympic National Champion to figure that out.

Olympic National Champion, whatever that means.


It's interesting how simple changes draw such dramatic responses. As is or with a simple light configuration change electronic targets are here. The sky is not falling and this simple change will be in the rear view mirror in no time, or people can let it defeat them. It's not a big deal.

While entertaining, most posts in this thread have nothing to do with the AMU or the Bianchi Cup.

jmdavis wrote:If it is true, there are going to be alot more Marines and Navy shooters winning big matches. 

There is nobody in The Navy paid to shoot bullseye and there hasn't been a command with "shooting bullseye" in it's mission statement in well over twenty years so there is not much difference between them and a civilian shooter.

robert84010 wrote:

jmdavis wrote:If it is true, there are going to be alot more Marines and Navy shooters winning big matches. 

There is nobody in The Navy paid to shoot bullseye and there hasn't been a command with "shooting bullseye" in it's mission statement in well over twenty years so there is not much difference between them and a civilian shooter.

All of that is absolutely true. But I dare say that someone like Cmd Bartel, could win the Pistol NTI or other big matches in the same way that he won the Rifle NTI this year. There is no command with a mission statement of shooting Highpower either. But, I do understand your point. The counterpoint that I make is that over the past few years I have met more than a few really good Navy shooters. Some might have orders to Nationals, Interservice, and the Fleet Matches. Others might be on their own dime or on No Cost. But regardless they are skilled even though none is paid to shoot full time.

jmdavis wrote:

robert84010 wrote:

jmdavis wrote:If it is true, there are going to be alot more Marines and Navy shooters winning big matches. 

There is nobody in The Navy paid to shoot bullseye and there hasn't been a command with "shooting bullseye" in it's mission statement in well over twenty years so there is not much difference between them and a civilian shooter.

All of that is absolutely true. But I dare say that someone like Cmd Bartel, could win the Pistol NTI or other big matches in the same way that he won the Rifle NTI this year. There is no command with a mission statement of shooting Highpower either. But, I do understand your point. The counterpoint that I make is that over the past few years I have met more than a few really good Navy shooters. Some might have orders to Nationals, Interservice, and the Fleet Matches. Others might be on their own dime or on No Cost. But regardless they are skilled even though none is paid to shoot full time.

I know, I used to be one of them.

What years?

Bingo.  CDR Bartel and others do what they on their own dime.  Most of the time we only get no-cost TAD orders....which means on your own dime to represent your command or service at competition and you supply your own firearms and ammunition, etc.   I'm heading to the Atlantic Fleet competition this year and it will be using my own resources to get/stay there, but I appreciate my command letting me go, getting off work to compete is reward enough!  I doubt I'll make it to the inter-service, but fingers crossed that the AMU guys become so obsessed with Bianchi that they're M9s rust and maybe we'll have a chance....

Regardless, the Army's football team is still terrible.

robert84010,

I have shot plenty of bullseye matches on non-turning targets and I'll tell you it sucks.  Getting the first shot off at the buzzer is much harder than getting the shot to break when the black appears in front of your sights.

I've shot air pistol on the electronic targets, and it's plenty of fun for that particular sport.  I'm quite good at it actually--enough that I am right behind some master shooters that I can't compete with in bullseye.

At Camp Perry I shot an NMC on the non-turning electronic targets they had on display.  I would be fine with all of the electronics if they make the targets turn.


Turning targets are an important part of what makes bullseye unique.  I don't see why advocating preserving that uniqueness is a matter of ridicule.

This is a huge topic drift. I'm also disappointed that bullseye pistol shooters are so ready to jump on those very organizations that contribute most to their sport. When military funds are cut, some of the first things to feel the effect are the marksmanship units, so I'm not surprised...not happy, but not surprised.

"Regardless, the Army's football team is still terrible."




I used to hang out the USMA flag on Army Navy day.    Now I just set the game to auto record and then browse through it after the fact.   

This might be premature thinking the amu is done, they have been concentrating on the international shooting but Jim Henderson who is one of their best faild to qualify recently, cant remember if it was for the Olympic team or what but that might put more focus on them doing what they do better which has always been  bullseye

Rob,
Your line about "I don't see how it will work" is worthy of critique because it's just plain sad. Things change and you have to move forward, turning targets are the least of our worry in this sport overall, The NRA is making it happen so you why snivel about it.
 The only thing that sucks in Bullseye is any shot outside the ten ring, shooting a magazine of 5 tens, mag after mag is far more worthy of your attention. Whether the targets turn or not barely qualifies as noise in the whole picture and you will not reach goals if you let the noise get in your head. Believe it or not i'm trying to help you not ridicule you.

Shot with three AMU shooters at the NRA Action Pistol Regional in Virginia last weekend. They shot well at the Regional and better at the state match on Sunday.  They were very interested in the mover target system and took many pictures . The mover Bedford Rifle and Revolver Club has uses rails for the targets on the mover.
Said they are also shooting the Bates City Mo. regional this weekend. Said they had a new CO that was pushing ther to shoot NRA action Pistol.

Tom

It's the part of the rumor about the AMU having the resources to shoot action pistol (and other disciplines) instead of bullseye that makes me think NRA is trying to use the AMU to grow NRA action pistol at the expense of bullseye.

Maybe the AMU understands that there are other shooting sports other that Bullseye.

Tom

9146gt wrote:Maybe the AMU understands that there are other shooting sports other that Bullseye.

Tom

Better duck Tom, that'll probably generate a reaction...

I agree with you. Why wouldn't NRA try to use whatever means at their disposal, including using the AMU, to grow the sports that their members are interested in? I don't like it and don't agree with all the decisions that NRA makes, but the fact is that there are a lot more action shooters than Bullseye shooters - it would be silly for NRA not to focus on the sports that their members are shooting. If we want that to change then we have to grow Bullseye, and that's not going to happen because of anything going on in Fairfax, VA (or at Camp Perry for that matter).

(and yes, I'm ducking too)

The fate of this sport doesn't rest in the hands of the NRA.  If we want the NRA to take more interest in bullseye it's up to us to grow it.

If each of us just got 1 or 2 new shooters to shoot an NRA event the NRA would take notice.  You know they are watching the participation numbers.

Who knows maybe 1 or more out of every 100 we can drag to a match might like it enough to actually continue to compete.  It might take a couple of years but it's better than complaining.

WE are the best (or worst) ambassadors of our sport.

- Dave

Bullseye, is not necessarily more expensive than action pistol. And it can certainly be less expensive than 3 gun.  If you consider the act of shooting action, bullseye has more action that "Action" pistol. There is less waiting in bullseye than in Action Pistol. 

I know that these things aren't lost on most of you. But why are they lost on people as a whole? One reason is that like rifle, bullseye is far more fun for the shooter than the viewer. It doesn't make good TV any more than olympic rapidfire pistol or smallbore rifle. That means that it gets less coverage. And less coverage means that many people never hear about it. But, it has been a springboard for a number of Olympians and World Cup shooters like Sanderson, McMillian and Hamilton. 

It wasn't that long ago that the AMU took winning international competition at the Olympic level very seriously. And they won. It must be great to say that you won the Bianchi Cup, but how much greater is it to be able to say that you won the Gold Medal in 3P, or Prone, or FreePistol or rapidfire?

The AMU's participation in events is controlled by the base commander, they change every so often, the previous one shut the base matches off to civilians, he is gone and the new one evidently is not very pro bullseye as he has moved his shooters more toward the international events, and lets civillans participate ,when he is gone it will most likely change again.

DavidR wrote:The AMU's participation in events is controlled by the base commander, they change every so often, the previous one shut the base matches off to civilians, he is gone and the new one evidently is not very pro bullseye as he has moved his shooters more toward the international events, and lets civillans participate ,when he is gone it will most likely change again.

A few nits to pick.     That would be the Post Commander, not the Base commander,     And I have it on good authority from a now retired AMU shooter, that it is the AMU Unit commander who gets to make these decisions about what the mission is.  

Please remember that the Army Marksmanship Unit is a recruiting tool.   Because of this, they are necessarily numbers driven, and are going to go where they think the interest and the young recruitable bodies are.
  
That's not Bullseye folks.

Bianchi cup is action pistol with an international following. I don't really view it as an "international" event in the same way as the Olympics, Pan Am Games and World Cup. It's supporters clearly want that recognition, but that has not happened. 

I will say it again, AMU used to focus on winning high level International (as opposed to international) shooting events.

jmdavis wrote:Bianchi cup is action pistol with an international following. I don't really view it as an "international" event in the same way as the Olympics, Pan Am Games and World Cup. It's supporters clearly want that recognition, but that has not happened. 

I will say it again, AMU used to focus on winning high level International (as opposed to international) shooting events.

I also believe this is where the focus should be.    There is a lot of crossover between Service Pistol, conventional pistol, and International pistol.  
Not so much between action pistol, and precision pistol.   

 But if the Unit commander isn't a shooter, he probably doesn't understand this, and his concerns (getting promoted) probably don't match well with what you and I think the AMU mission should be.