S&W M46/41 FTF

My Hammerli is down for repair, so I pulled my "trusty" Model 46 with Model 41 slide and barrel out of the safe, where it has been for about 15 years.  When I placed it there, it was working fine.  Now, unfortunately, when I need it, it is failing me thusly:

Several times during a 900, I will get a click/no bang, which shows only the very minimal, almost invisible, mark on the rim.  I can tell the difference in the trigger as I bring it back, but since I'm concentrating on the shot, I don't try looking at the slide during those times in case it does fire.  However, I have found the gun just slightly out of battery on several occasions, to include the initial load of a new magazine.  The times I have been able to examine this further have shown the round to be fully chambered, but the extractor behind it instead of in front.  If I simply press the slide into battery all is well until the next time.  It happens across old and new magazines, at least seven of them and is random as to how many shots I can get off from a mag.  If I can find my other barrel, I'll see if that makes any difference.

Any thoughts would be welcomed, but it may be a bit of time before I get out to the range, since I'm under the weather myself, right now.  I hope I can identify something here at home.  Somewhere I have some dummy .22 rounds that I hope to use to see if I can duplicate the problem via cycling here at home.  Thanks...

Edit for additional info: A close examination of the extractor and its channel shows no dings or shiny portions except for the front portion of the extractor where it would ride over the rim if the round was in the chamber but the slide was retracted, and that area of the channel.  This is very shiny as though maybe the round is always ahead and the extractor makes it over for most.  The corresponding area of the cut out has some shine, but nowhere near what the extractor has.

I think your recoil spring has gotten weak. Same problem on my old 41 and a replacement spring solved it. It usually happened to me on the 1st round into chamber.

Len

OldMaster64 wrote:I think your recoil spring has gotten weak. Same problem on my old 41 and a replacement spring solved it. It usually happened to me on the 1st round into chamber.

Len

Thanks.  I had considered that, especially since it sat for so long.  I will be trying to check that.  It might actually be a reduced weight already.

Clean it. Really well.

Check to see that your extractor, extractor plunger and extractor spring are free of any dirt, unburnt powder or hardened oil that might be holding it tight against the bolt and stopping the extractor from freely riding over the rim of the cartridge.


Virgil

Virgil,

Silly me---I always thought that the rim of the .22 round was supposed to be fed UNDER the hook of the extractor.  Does the round get chambered first and then the extractor rides over the rim??


Have I been "wrong thinking" for over 65 years?

Jerry

jerry lehrer wrote:Virgil,

Silly me---I always thought that the rim of the .22 round was supposed to be fed UNDER the hook of the extractor.  Does the round get chambered first and then the extractor rides over the rim??


Have I been "wrong thinking" for over 65 years?

Jerry

No, you  have been correct for 65 years , it goes under the extractor. I know in my 41 there is some movement of the extractor when the bolt closes on the barrel. If it doesn't move (extractor) I can see it holding up the bolt so that it doesn't close fully. Just a guess but worth looking at.

Check the extractor spring slot.  When mine was giving me problems after sitting for 15 yrs. the spring was rusted in place in the slot.  You may need a new bolt pin when you put it back together.

Scott

Ed, does a round drop fully into the chamber of the barrel all the way to the rim?  If not clean the chamber well until a round can drop in and turn the barrel upside down and fall out.  Also check to make sure the bolt is tight in the slide.  If you have any movement that can cause a FTF as well.

jerry lehrer wrote:Virgil,

Silly me---I always thought that the rim of the .22 round was supposed to be fed UNDER the hook of the extractor.  Does the round get chambered first and then the extractor rides over the rim??


Have I been "wrong thinking" for over 65 years?

Jerry

Jerry,   Unless I am reading your bio wrong. You can't be "wrong thinking" over 65 years if your only 55 years old.

OldeMaster.........

Someone gave the wrong bio information.  I was born in 1929.

Jerry

Same as my Dad. I was looking at your join date and age on the info you posted on the right side of this page. Right above my avatar after I post this.

Len

Look for a broken firing pin or broken firing pin spring. 

Brian

Ok, I finally made it out to the range and gathered some more info.

A round does fall into and out of the chamber unhindered.

The extractor is free and not hitting anywhere it shouldn't.

It failed many times tonight, all the exact same - the slide was just barely out of battery, the case was held by the extractor.  A push on the slide caused an audible click as it went fully into battery.  On other rounds there was no hesitation to fully chamber and after the click there was no other restriction.

Now for the additional info:  I have discovered that the bullets are being shaved and have found some of those shavings.  I'm thinking that some of those shavings are what is keeping the cartridge a tiny bit out of battery.  In further experimentation, I have found that the scraping is happening at 6-o'clock on the bullet.  Sometimes the bullet nose is damaged, but other times the leading edge of the first full sized band is scraped down.

Examination of the ramp and chamber shows a sharp chamber edge above the top of the ramp.  I'm wondering if relieving that sharp edge a little might eliminate the shaving.

Thanks for any additional help.

Ed

For what it's worth that's almost the exact problem mine was having when the extracter wasn't moving freely.  The extracter was forcing the back of the round to stay down and it was shaving half moon shaped lead pieces of the bullet at six o'clock.  I did take a round stone and just slightly take off the sharp edge at the chamber with no ill effect.  It didn't solve the problem but didn't cause any either.  I have since moved on to a better barrel and no longer shoot that barrel but it didn't cause any problems when I was shooting it.

Scott

Ed, is the bolt tight in the slide or is there movement?  If it's not tight I'm going to say there is your problem.  The potential for the bolt to be misaligned with the barrel increases with how loose the bolt is in the slide.  That could be your feeding issue.

kc.crawford.7 wrote:Ed, is the bolt tight in the slide or is there movement?  If it's not tight I'm going to say there is your problem.  The potential for the bolt to be misaligned with the barrel increases with how loose the bolt is in the slide.  That could be your feeding issue.

Sorry KC,  I had meant to mention that the bolt is indeed solid in the slide - no movement whatsoever.

As a side thought, back when I started modifying 41 mags for Hammerli 208s use, I ran into an issue where the round would actually tip so far forward, it would hit the front of the magazine and leave a little smiley face on the bullet tip.  This does not seem to be the same and I can't see how that would happen in the 46.  Then again, I don't remember why/how it was happening in the 208s.

And, just to note, this is occurring across many magazines, to include 208s modified, used, but not modified and brand new.  It also occurred with the magazine disconnect disabled and enabled.

I still need to try a different spring, but wonder how that could affect shaving...

Thanks for all thoughts.  (If I could only figure out what I did with that other barrel...)

Have you tried any different ammo?

The possibilities still appear too many to discuss. 

I would follow up the extractor movement with whether it hangs up with upward pressure on it, as in when the rim is trying to slip under there. I've had many mechanical things that moved freely in the middle, but ground to a halt with off-center forces.

There is also the possibility that the rim is hitting the bottom corners of the extractor somewhere. I would break all corners with an Arkansas stone just out of general principles.

I had the same problem with my A prefix 41.I believe that during its 15 year nap in your safe, the lubricants in your Sleeping Beauty settled and then partially solidified.  I'm a photographer and used to shoot (pictures) with a large format (4x5) camera that used interchangeable lenses, each with its own complicated mechanical shutter. I was working in Singapore when one of the lenses quit working. I was pretty frantic. Then I remembered that in the Navy, the cameras going to Antarctica were winterized by removing all the lubricants, which tended to gum up in cold weather. I wasn't in Antarctica,but I bought a can of Ronson lighter fluid, which is mostly naphthalene. I removed the glass elements from the lens and doused the shutter mechanism liberally with the lighter fluid, which removed all the lubricants. The shutter worked perfectly. 

When I experienced problems with my 41, I removed the stocks, barrel and slide and using a glass dish stolen from the kitchen, soaked all the components in Coleman Fuel-naphtalene- for 30 minutes. I worked the firing pin and the extractor using a small screwdriver. I  scrubbed everything with a toothbrush followed by a wipe down with a clean rag. I then let them air dry for a few hours. The Coleman fuel totally degreased/de-oiled the parts, so I lightly sprayed everything with Rem Oil and wiped down. I  oiled the extractor and trigger with ATF- automatic transmission fluid. This solved the problem and the 41 has functioned flawlessly for at least three years. If your 41 worked well before it was put away, there is no reason why it should not work today. After all, its just a machine. And just a little bit of congealed oil may cause any machine not to function. Try what I've outlined above. If it doesn't work, then get into the esoterica of changing springs, switching ammo, etc.  

A note of caution: Coleman Fuel is extremely inflammable and you CANNOT use it indoors anywhere near an open flame or you'll soon be looking for a new house. I clean in my garage and immediately pour the fuel back into its container after use.

Ed
Give all working parts a good soaking of Gun Scrubber and follow up with your favorite lube. (LLF&GC VP).

I'm about done with this, at least until I find the other barrel.  I totally stripped it again and even put a tiny round on the extractor bottom corner and took it to the range last night for league.  THE VERY FIRST ROUND out of the magazine exhibited the unwanted behavior!  This time I really couldn't see any shaving of the bullet, either.  I also tried a different recoil spring, too.

But, now, the real kicker - my Ruger did the same thing continuously for my first brand of ammo (Armscor SV).  It settled down for CCI SV.  The 46 was consistently messed up for the Amscor, CCI and Eley Sport.

I have a good supply of Armscor but only a couple more outings worth of CCI and Eley Sport.  And, I don't expect my Hammerli to be back together before April.

Thanks for all the help, but it appears perhaps it's me...

Edit:  My favorite lube is BreakFree CLP, but since my league is in the cold, I used a liberal coating of Rem Oil last night.

Ed Hall wrote:....so I pulled my "trusty" Model 46 with Model 41 slide and barrel out of the safe, where it has been for about 15 years.

Hello,

I have been told by several pistol smiths, and once had a conversation about the subject with Roy Jinks, that you could swap M46 barrels and slides onto a M41 but "not" vice versa.  Perhaps that's the issue.

Jim

Ed, what weight recoil spring are you using?  Are you "sling shoting" the slide or using the slide release lever?  I'm racking my brain as to what could be causing this.  If you would like give me a call and we can talk about it.  I also have some 41 barrels if that would be of interest as well.

I look forward to hearing back from you.

Ed, let's PM for e-mail exchange unless you can look me up from my profile anyway. I'd like you to send a couple of pics, starting with the front surface of your extractor, and how the extractor "fits" into the slot at the rear of the barrel.

Yes, the fact it WAS working perfectly with no for-sure variable other than passage of time. Time effects on lube *appear* to be isolated out IF your cleanup has indeed resulted in squeeky-cleeeen surfaces. Rem Oil was a good choice under the circumstances, even though I have found Break*Free to be quite cold-tolerant.

One thing I'm thinking now, within the limits of in abstentia, is for whatever reason, the front surface of the extractor, maybe just the outboard tip, has just enough friction to hold it closed and the slide back instead of finishing the click over the rim.

I am NOT convinced that rimfires really feed under the extractor like a 1911 should. BOTH if properly tuned WILL snap over the rim if the round goes in front of the extractor.

If you have a real "hard" Arkansas stone that's like a piece of glass, give that thing a mirror polish and see what happens.

I reviewed the thread and I don't see a definitive answer on your recoil spring. Even without being stored compressed, springs do fail. Yours might have had a life of 17,582 cycles and you put it away at cycle no. 17, 575.

This has me intrigued. If NOTHING works, well, I'll give ya $400 for the broken piece of ... :-) Can you tell I love a challenge?

GrumpyOldMan said:

I am NOT convinced that rimfires really feed under the extractor like a 1911 should. BOTH if properly tuned WILL snap over the rim if the round goes in front of the extractor.

I was not convinced either so I did some testing. With snap caps. With the magazine full of snap caps I tried high speed and slow speed feeding. Just letting the slide forward very slowly I was able to see the cap snap up instantly under the extractor when the snap/bullet went far enough to clear the back of the magazine. The magazine spring really throws it up there. I was able to test the high speed release by placing a Q-tip to stop the slide from going all the way forward. The cap popped up every time behind the extractor. This was in my old model 41. Now I am convinced.

Len