Cones vs Bushings

Some where, Jon and I were talking about the two.. I can't find it now.. But here's a pic of a freshly machined cone, ready to install..

Joe Chambers threads his barrel ends then uses a screw on adjustable cone system and its working out very well for him.

Jerry,
Are you in need of a barrel to install it on?  I can have one sent your way on Monday...

Clark Sr "Clark" Recoil Master -  38 Super - Oct 1994 coned barrel.  Looks good and shoots great at both 25 and 50 yards.

Jerry,
 We were discussing the STI Range Master when we got into cones.
Len

Yes, cones have been around a long time... Someone researched it on another forum, and was able to closely determine the origin. I have only been doing them for about 5 years now.. Bob Marvel used them, Joe Chambers, and Chuck Warner a noted race gun builder, influenced me to give them a try in an effort to reduce recoil for my lady shooter after her injury.. I really like them..
Jim Stroh made many barrels similar to the coned compensated Clark pictured above.. I have many of his prints, and they are dated
late 80s early 90s

Steve B wrote:Jerry,
Are you in need of a barrel to install it on?  I can have one sent your way on Monday...

Is there an advantage to a coned barrel as opposed to a "bull" barrel?

Same concept except a threaded Cone can be adjusted if they loosen up, bulls cant.

DavidR wrote:Same concept except a threaded Cone can be adjusted if they loosen up, bulls cant.

Not speaking for other smiths, but my cones are not adjustable after the initial fit up.. Once loc tited in place, the only way to remove it,  is to machine it off.. Cones are cheap and expendable in my veiw.. I have never replaced one.. When that time rolls around, that questions arise regarding the barrel fit/lock up.. I replace them both..  
Bull barrels add a lot of extra weight..some shooters object to that.. The cone adds so little that it's hardly noticable..

So the cone is softer than the slide and is the wearing part to be replaced?  Is there a taper that seems to be ideal or is it something standardized like a morse taper?  Always informative to read your posts Jerry. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
                                                                             Cliff

Jerry Keefer wrote:

DavidR wrote:Same concept except a threaded Cone can be adjusted if they loosen up, bulls cant.

Not speaking for other smiths, but my cones are not adjustable after the initial fit up.. Once loc tited in place, the only way to remove it,  is to machine it off.. Cones are cheap and expendable in my veiw.. I have never replaced one.. When that time rolls around, that questions arise regarding the barrel fit/lock up.. I replace them both..  
Bull barrels add a lot of extra weight..some shooters object to that.. The cone adds so little that it's hardly noticable..

Joe C posted that his could be loosened and reset, that's the only cones ive seen. Guess there are several different ways to do it.

kwixdraw wrote:So the cone is softer than the slide and is the wearing part to be replaced?  Is there a taper that seems to be ideal or is it something standardized like a morse taper?  Always informative to read your posts Jerry. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
                                                                             Cliff

I have seen no detectable wear on either the cone or the slide of guns that have been used heavily for several years.. Hypothetically, should abnormal wear occur, it would be an easy fix, as I can make the cone to any size I want/need..   I am a huge proponent of lots of good lube, like TW-25B in the muzzle area, for either the cone or the bushing..
To me, the exact angle of taper is meaningless...The gun in the photo has a slide ID after lapping, of .7010.. I then turned the straight section of the cone to .7010.. after polish it ended up .7008
I personally want as much lock up on the straight section as possible.. I indicate and pick up the taper, kick in a few minutes more, so my tool just barely skims the small end and picks up slightly heavier at the big end, and ultimately leaves approx. .100  straight section. Locking up on an angle or taper is questionable, IMO.. The fit is snug with drag when pushed in with finger pressure.. I can probably do a bushing faster, after years of perfecting the fixtures, and it's debatable which is "best" as I have seen some great shooting bushing guns, but the very best groups I have ever gotten has been with the cone.. I believe the function has a better feel.. Might be imagination...

A custom made cone like Jerry uses is the only way to do it on a BE pistol. Standard cones and bull barrels are undersized and fit snug only if very lucky. Luck isn't the right way to build a BE pistol )
His 0.100" straight section for lock up is perfect because it coincides with the lock up of the bottom barrel lugs. As far as wear goes, my personal BE pistol that I've been shooting for the last 7-8 years has ZERO wear at the bushing barrel fit and it's snug. Oil is your friend!
Jon

Sweet. Thanks for sharing Gents.
                                             Cliff

Yes, cones have been around a long time... Someone researched it on another forum, and was able to closely determine the origin. I have only been doing them for about 5 years now.. Bob Marvel used them, Joe Chambers, and Chuck Warner a noted race gun builder, influenced me to give them a try in an effort to reduce recoil for my lady shooter after her injury.. I really like them..
Jim Stroh made many barrels similar to the coned compensated Clark pictured above.. I have many of his prints, and they are dated
late 80s early 90s



Jerry,

Re your earlier post above on the subject, was there a noticeable reduction in recoil for your lady shooter for which you or she can attribute in aiding her shooting ability by using a coned barrel after her injury?

Given her noteworthy rapid rise to Master, one has to wonder if the coned barrel played a a role?  

Hard work on her part and superb support on yours in more than just gunsmithing surely were the critical factors.

Finally, her exemplary performance at Perry last year as well as that at Cavalier in the recent past and subsequent rise to Master has given us who languish in the Expert class new hope to fare better in the standings at Cavalier.

Cheers

Why is there less recoil? Doesn't look like that it adds much weight.

Hence the question I posed.  I wonder as well.

My Clark (pictured above) has almost no recoil but that is because of the compensator.  Blows the hell out of the well worn and tattered insulation plastic covering above the shooting positions at my club. Occasionally, I go out with my back-pack blower and remove a lot more of the plastic covering before matches and when I practice.  If I get there early enough for a match, I make sure that I get a position that I have "prepared".  We are the only club in the immediate area of more than a half-dozen that host monthly BE matches that felt the need to insulate the roof.  Our April matches are not any warmer than at the other clubs. Someone probably figured that it would insulate the sound (doesn't).

Trying to find a load for a race gun to be used for BE was initially a challenge. The folks at Clark were very helpful in telling me all about power factors, more popular action pistol powders, and load data.  My intent was to find something that would be accurate at 25 and 50 yards, operate the gun reliably, and be able to take advantage of the recoil reduction of the compensator.

My present load has less felt recoil than my GSP Expert .32 S&W Long (1.3 grains of N310) although it is different recoil.  The GSP recoil is more noticeably straight back because of the low boreline as are other European guns that I have.  Straight arm and tight grip don't seem to be as important.  The 1911 is like a 1911.  A good comparison of the .32 S&W Long round in terms of aerodynamics was probably best described to me by Earl at Carl Walther USA.  He said it was about the same as trying to throw a beer can 50 yards.  I have a Dave Wilson barrel which helps a great deal, but I find it very unforgiving at 50 yards. At 25, it shines because that is what it was designed to do.  A couple of very, very successful BE High Masters easily shot in the 880's with their Pardinis with a Wilson barrel.

I wonder if the cone vs bushing argument is similar to the "ford-chevy argument".  It has been more than a few decades since I used to tear down (and up) more than a few small-block chevy engines.  Could make them do all sorts of great things with over-the-counter parts from the chevy dealer.  Didn't need to go to a speed shop.  Later, Chevy proved that with the early Z-28 302 engine.  An interesting mixture of 327 and 283 parts all over-the -counter.  Couldn't do that with the small-block fords with their hydraulic lifters.  Damned things would float at max RPM.  The chevy just kept on going past redline with those solid lifters - but it didn't last long like the Energizer Rabbit. 

If you started with one, or your daddy did, or your buddy did, or whoever did, then you did and it probably really doesn't matter which is the "better".  Seems that if a coned barrel was the answer, the folks making bushings wouldn't be working too hard keeping up with demand and a coned barrel would likely be an advertised option from the better private and commercial gunsmiths, Baer, Rock River, Accuracy X, etc.  Certainly all will likely make a gun anyway you want if you are willing to pay for it, but I haven't seen many BE gun order sheets with the cone option.  My Clark is very quick and easy to tear down for cleaning because of the lack of a bushing. 

My Clark is great, but no better than the Baer Monolith or Rock River Wadgun or a Colt that has had a few references involving Herschel Anderson.  The biggest attraction is the easy recoil that caters to my candy-assed physic and demeanor.

Jon Eulette wrote:A custom made cone like Jerry uses is the only way to do it on a BE pistol. Standard cones and bull barrels are undersized and fit snug only if very lucky. Luck isn't the right way to build a BE pistol )
His 0.100" straight section for lock up is perfect because it coincides with the lock up of the bottom barrel lugs. As far as wear goes, my personal BE pistol that I've been shooting for the last 7-8 years has ZERO wear at the bushing barrel fit and it's snug. Oil is your friend!
Jon

I don't think "its the only way" at all as Joe chambers is getting wide recognition and racking up match wins and records set using his cone design. Im sure Jerrys way is excellent too but there are other variations that work as good or better.imo

You misunderstood my point. If it's not oversized and custom fit it'll be loose. So you can't use an off the shelf part. Obviously more than one way to skin a cat :p)
Jon

Jerry or Jon

How is the take down on a cone barrel gun?  Is it easier to maintain and take apart?

Can you build one from a regular frame or do you need a special one?

thanks for your repsonses.

 as good or better.imo

It boils down to one thing only...How tight and close can the fit be..?? It's Machine shop 101..I don't care if it's a bushing or a cone...
I would not be using cones, had my lady shooter not been injured.. After some study and thought, I knew I could machine a cone to closer tolerances than I can a  bushing, and do it easier..

knightimac wrote:Jerry or Jon

How is the take down on a cone barrel gun?  Is it easier to maintain and take apart?

Can you build one from a regular frame or do you need a special one?

thanks for your repsonses.

It's easier to take down.. I believe in an eared reverse plug.. It adds support to the system.

38Super!! wrote:

 Couldn't do that with the small-block fords with their hydraulic lifters.  Damned things would float at max RPM.  The chevy just kept on going past redline with those solid lifters -

We have much  in common..  1960 thru the mid 70s I was heavily involved in drag racing... I should have focused on Chevy or MoPar.. I stubbornly clung to the Ford small blocks, which were great engines, but the small block Chevy was superior in performance.. There were numerous add on available thru Ford  under the Carroll Shelby/Cobra banner. I ran various solid lifter cams that were quite good..But was  the Isky roller I once had was, wow.!!!

What is the cost to have you switch a bushing gun to a cone on say a range officer?