Tuning the S&W Model 41 Ejector???

by GrumpyOldMan Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:53 am

With all the common, accepted, "everyone knows", and even wrong info out there about "tuning" 1911 extractors AND ejectors (most reliably as working to make sure both are right) to kick the cases in one direction or another and higher or lower out the ejection port, where is the similar information for the S&W Model 41?

Someone's gotta know, and it's gotta be written down somewhere, right?

I want there to be some way to get the fired cases to go out totally sideways and NOT up at an angle that makes them bounce off of the barrel extension. Cutting off the rear sight extension or buying a barrel without one strikes me as being like switching to a colonoscopy bag because you don't like what Mexican food does to the "usual" exit point. There's a better analogy, but cutting off your nose to cure runny nose allergies just doesn't seem to fit as well...

by Jerry Keefer Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:22 pm

This has always been a very subjective topic.. I frankly don't believe you can effect the trajectory of the ejected brass of a 1911 by filing / grinding a slight chamfer or bevel on the side of the ejector.. If you look at the position of the ejector in relation to the case, it has very small mechanical advantage over the case..and certainly cannot be effected by a small angle on the side.
The extractor has the last actual effect on the case.. Many extractors are on the long side, and force the case to fight to get past/rollover the end..I weld the firing pin stop slot and recut it to pull the extractor back minimizing the overage in length.
41s...I take each one as a separate unit.. The ejectors are at times too low.. I have machined clearance in many breech blocks to allow the ejector to rise higher, making positive contact with the case.. I have tig welded the ejectors to reshape the contact area, which has been worn or filed down. One thing I have found by accident. The extractor camming radius in the breechface is most troublesome..and very often a major source of light hits. A 45 degree angle is superior to timing the extractor. I noticed that 22 rifles had such a cut.. I thought why didn't I think of that for pistols.. Especially the Marvels which had a tendency to eat through the into the chamber, causing huge feeding issues..My life was much easier, as was Marvel's.. They changed shortly there after.

by GrumpyOldMan Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:08 pm

With 1911s my understanding is that the extractor affects the throw more, and the "extended ejectors" are just for the shorter-barrel guns. Why? Not sure I ever saw an explanation, but I could guess that having the casehead hit that thing a little bit sooner gives a little more time for the case to spin away before the slide comes back forward.

Found the Behlert article night before last and found it interesting. Next is hauling out the pistol and seeing whether the extractor holds the fired cases adequately or not.

Fought with the extractor on an AK type for years, at one point believing I had a fix when the system was corrected to really hold the fired case in the boltface, but it cured only the wobbly-path failed to even hit the fixed ejector problem. Ejection got fixed but only when extraction didn't fail. Finally located a proper extractor and no problems since.

Model 41 with fixed ejector--I can see some similarity in operation and fixes. Will post what I find. This one, so far, never feeds a round underneath a sideways fired case with HV ammo, and rarely does it with standard velocity of any sort when the temps are above 50 degrees F. I'll look at the extractor before I bother getting a pack of four or whatever springs to get the ONE I need...

Surprised there are not more observations/tips/responses on this.

by Froneck Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:41 am

I have been told by a few of great smiths that taught me quite a bit an angle filed on the ejector will effect the direction of ejection. However not a left to right angle. A flat vertical face tends to eject the case out the side more and desirable if a slide mounted scope is used. An angle from the top down toward the muzzle will tend to eject cases up and used on a "Ball gun" so as not to pelt the guy to your right with brass.

by Dipnet Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:56 am

Grumpy,
I don't know if this website has the specific information you are looking for, but it has stuff I didn't know, e.g., how to adjust trigger pull weight on a model 41. Check out http://guntalk-online.com/Model41maintenance.htm#trigadjust dipnet

by GrumpyOldMan Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:32 pm

Thanks, DipNet. I had seen that a few years ago but had forgotten most of it.

The slide/extractor do hold the case securely enough. Slide only on frame ejects less than 45° up from horizontal, I would estimate it at 30° but need to consult a protractor.

I'll post in Commercial Row seeking any cast-off springs.

by Jerry Keefer Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:16 pm

Just to mention...I never bend the 41 extractor... Austin Behlert and I discussed this years ago.. He advocated it, I did not, but that was quite a few years ago..Extractors are a simple device with a specific function to perform.. and should be fit and adjusted accordingly..

by GrumpyOldMan Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:11 pm

Jerry:

In my various adventures and misadventures with dozens and dozens of various bits of metal over the years, my opinion now is that if I need an extractor to "bite" a little deeper, I'd rather remove a bit of metal from where it stops moving towards the center of the case. With a 41, that makes it rotate in a bit more.

Had a CF semi a while back with a super-long extractor that hit the front of the groove so hard it left a gouge, and with some brands of cases would hold the slide back and FTFire. A little cut to the front surface bought me proper clearance, and it still pivoted into the case well enough to hold even live rounds all the way back to the fixed ejector.

Anyone know why pistols just don't use plunger ejectors like our WWII era rifles and carbines and almost all self-feeding rifles nowdays? That sure would have helped some cumbersome takedown procedures on Ruger and probably a few other CF pistols...

by Jerry Keefer Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:01 pm

GrumpyOldMan wrote:Jerry:

With a 41, that makes it rotate in a bit more.
On a good day, the extractor on a .22 has a mere .020 + to grip the case. As with the 1911, the majority of the grip force should be on the outside of the rim.. No contact by the extractor point/tip. If the tip is digging in to hold the case on extraction, it is also interfering as the case is feeding up the breechface. Machine the rim area to fit.. Add a spot of tig further back and shape it to control cam out..

Had a CF semi a while back with a super-long extractor that hit the front of the groove so hard it left a gouge, and with some brands of cases would hold the slide back and FTFire. A little cut to the front surface bought me proper clearance, and it still pivoted into the case well enough to hold even live rounds all the way back to the fixed ejector.
EGW makes the shortest, and they are great extractors... BUT, there are times when even the EGW will be too long for a given application.. The proper way to correct the condition, is to silver solder a steel shim into the firing pin stop slot, and remachine the slot position to pull the extractor back toward the breechface and away/free from contact with the rebate angle.. The gun will not only feed better, it may enhance accuracy, by preventing the long extractor tip from pushing the cartridge off center in the chamber. The base of the case should be held in battery flat, and firmly against the breechface, with ZERO pressure from the extractor. EGW even offers extractors without the firing pin stop slot cut for custom fitting.

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Tuning the S&W Model 41 Ejector???

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