75deg. stance vs 45deg. stance

First topic message reminder :

So I have something that you might find interesting. And I might of brought it up before but here goes. During a match I stand 75deg. from the shooting line.  My eye, sight and target lines up nicely.  The thing is when I'm messing around and try standing at a 45deg. from the shooting line I feel much more solid.  My slow fire scores are better but timed and rapid are not as good.  And thats because I am fighting to keep things lined up.  One thing about the 45deg. stance is my face is straight forward where with the 75deg. my face is offset. With the 75deg. stance  my wrist is pretty straight and with the 45deg. stance my wrist has to be bent outward.
I would like to change over to the 45deg. stance but.....would it make sense????
Looking for ideas and opinions

285wannab wrote:Thanks Len.
I am going to work on the 45degish stance for awhile.  I think over time it will become second nature and I will feel more solid.  The proof will be an increase/decrease in my average.
I would be interested in how other shooters hold their wrist.

Something I have come to believe in is the best lift is not lifting the gun or the hand, but it is lifting the wrist.  IMO it is best to firm the forearm and focus your lift at the wrist.  Step on an exercise rubber tube and loop the other end around your wrist.  Now pretend you have an 8# bass hanging from your wrist and firm your forearm from elbow to wrist.

Rob, I think that is what has happened to me, plateaued, so I am changing things up to see what happens.
Jack, that is a good exercise that I have forgotten about.
I am going to give my new position a chance for a month and see where I am at.
Thanks all.........

Take a Zins clinic.  I just finished my second one and the very small changes I needed to make made a huge difference in my performance.

Rob Kovach wrote:Take a Zins clinic.  I just finished my second one and the very small changes I needed to make made a huge difference in my performance.

Rob, the price of his clinics has tripped many might not can afford the price tag  for one time much less two.
Why don't you share with us what things you learned that helped you? after all its not like "fight club" you can talk about it!

DavidR wrote:

Rob Kovach wrote:Take a Zins clinic.  I just finished my second one and the very small changes I needed to make made a huge difference in my performance.

Rob, the price of his clinics has tripped many might not can afford the price tag  for one time much less two.
Why don't you share with us what things you learned that helped you? after all its not like "fight club" you can talk about it!

I've been to one of Brian's clinic's and it was a big help, even though everything he went over is on his blog at: http://www.brianzins.com/category/fundamentals/ Think of it as a one day coaching session, being there in person things kind of click. If I could spend a week with him I know I'd make my season objectives during that week.

Even the top athletes in the world have coaches, I think Woods during his peak had least 4, swing, putting, chipping and game management/stress.

- Dave

285wannab wrote:Rob, I think that is what has happened to me, plateaued, so I am changing things up to see what happens.
Jack, that is a good exercise that I have forgotten about.
I am going to give my new position a chance for a month and see where I am at.
Thanks all.........

Doing this exercise will show you where your lifting strength is best.

Here is an update on my stance and grip.  I was trying an 45deg stance with my wrist in the position reaching out and grabbing someone by the throat.  Trouble is my wrist is being forced into this position and I'm not sure if that is a good thing or not.  So I went back to a more open stance with my wrist in the postition of a punch.  Wish I could line up with a 45deg. stance and my wrist in netual/punch postion.
Speaking of lining up does everyone line up perpendicular to the  target or does anyone line up offset from that line?
And still speaking of a line.  My last time out shooting my reddot was almost a solid line before having my shot go off. Left to right just outside the black on both sides.  Ideas? One more thing to work on.  Good thing I like shooting.

Rob Kovach wrote:Grip can change a whole lot.  Ask Brian Zins and anyone who has attended his clinic.  You can rotate that gun in your hand and end up with something completely different.

How do you rotate the grip in your hand and not lose the so called Zins position on the palm?

Somebody else posted this somewhere. ..
There are 2 ways that I see people gripping the gun: with the wrist angle the same as if you were going to grab someone by the throat, or with the wrist in a straight angle like a punch.

Zins had me change my grip to the punch version with the sights pointing to the left of my arm. I'm not gripping the pistol so that the gun lines up with my forearm. That's why making sure the gun is turned to the correct angle is important.

Jack, the grip that Brian taught me points the sight directly to my eye. I think if you don't have it like that, it's not the Zins grip.

Oh, and DavidR said that the Zins clinics are expensive. Brian is able to keep the costs per participant low if there are enough participants to cover his expenses. Reach out to Brian and see if you can get enough people to commit so the price will divide out.

DavidR wrote:Rob, the price of his clinics has tripped many might not can afford the price tag  for one time much less two.

Sorry to say it, but this is ridiculous.

As much time and money as people waste on going nowhere in this sport, make the investment in some coaching. Stop dicking around with Random Rest testing and slugging your barrel and measuring OAL of your brass and go to a clinic, or pay a coach (if you can find one).

I agree that coaching and clinics are hard to find, but if you have the time and one of Zins's clinics is available near you, cost should not be an obstacle. Your ROI will be much greater for every penny spent on that than pretty much anything else you can do.

And I say this having never gone to a Zins/Moody clinic.

But I run clinics for my club and charge the princely sum of $25, and I can tell by attendance who is interested in becoming a better bullseye shooter, and who is interested in...well, some other stuff, I guess.

If anyone knows of a Zins clinic coming up, I would be very interested on attending one.

285Wannab,

That shaking that makes the dot look like a line--dryfiring fixes that. You just need more strength in the muscles that you are using to hold the gun still while you move the trigger. The other thing that causes shaking is overtrying. Relax. Especially don't think about shooting a good score. Think about executing your shot process. The one you are writing down that describes the steps you followed to shoot a good shot.

My stance is about 45 degrees from the line of the targets.

john bickar wrote:

DavidR wrote:Rob, the price of his clinics has tripped many might not can afford the price tag  for one time much less two.

Sorry to say it, but this is ridiculous.


But I run clinics for my club and charge the princely sum of $25, and I can tell by attendance who is interested in becoming a better bullseye shooter, and who is interested in...well, some other stuff, I guess.

Wish you could do one for us, zins wanted 300.00 a person with a 20 person min. for our club, the members voted to pass because many declined because of the cost. Ridiculous  or not thats what happened.

Being a Trapshooter, that numbers pretty ordinary from a top level professional.

I thought that Zins was $5k for the weekend, but that may have gone up. However, that covered all costs. I don't know many places that one can get instruction from a National Champion at any price. 

That said, I haven't been able to get even 15 people to commit, if I hosted one. The aging of Bullseye shooters does have some negative effects. Richmond was able to host two clinics by Zins/Moody in 2006 and 2008. The Masters that I know who attended strongly recommended it to me. 

If anyone hears of one, PLEASE let me know. 

Mike Davis

Sounds like we may be over analyzing this grip and stance thing.   Bottom line is, however you grip and stand, you want the sights or scope to point at the target when the gun is where it wants to be.  Slow fire, timed fire, rapid fire...  The gun should naturally recover back on the target.  If it does not you need to make the appropriate modifications to make it happen.

On dry firing...  A long term advocate of dry firing against a blank wall I have recently tried hanging a target and dry firing at it.  I quickly understood why my slow fire has not been up to par.  Made me spend entire 9.5 hour work shifts as a RSO with my wadcutter gun and a target..  My match slow fire scores immediately showed improvement.

DavidR wrote:Wish you could do one for us

You would have to talk to Mrs. Bickar about that.

DavidR wrote:zins wanted 300.00 a person with a 20 person min. for our club, the members voted to pass because many declined because of the cost. Ridiculous  or not thats what happened.

Aye, that's a horse of a different color.  I have been (and may still be) a member of some clubs with deep pockets, and short arms.

You can tell the members of your club that some guy on the Internet thinks they're penny-wise and pound-foolish.

John is right.  When I think of all the money I have spent on the sport so far, buying a new wadgun would actually be at the bottom of the list for what really improved my scores.  I did all the leg work for the Zins clinic I held last year in February.  In April or May I bought a turning target system.  In June of 2014 I broke 2600.
This Spring I set up the turner in the back yard and dry fired two second drills every morning.  Shot 2634 and also got my HM card this week. 
I probably could have done all this with my old frame mount stock Range Officer.   

Back on topic.  One overlooked aspect is the slabs you put on the gun.  A thicker or thinner grip may help and get your finger placement where you want.  Right now I have a set of very slim grips on mine.  They came with shallower bushings even.  Seems to help with shortline but has required some adjusting to in slow fire.

I understand the theory of knowledge is priceless, and at some point maybe our members would opt to pay the money for a zins clinic, I would but it takes 20 and we didn't have close to that that would or could at that time. I actually got one for free, in 04 zins and the marine team shot at our state match and did one for us in the down time after the match. There was no mention from zins then on his different grip, not sure why.

The problem with the Zins's clinics is it's only one weekend. Plus you need quite a few shooters to offset the cost. With that many shooters there is little individual time with an instructor.
 There is a relationship between the stance, grip and finger placement. I typed it out but poof it was gone, I don't want to do it again. However that information is available.
 I do agree that less time should be spent fooling with reloads and gun accuracy, develop or copy a good load and stick with it. Get an accurate reliable gun and shoot it!
 I know none of us have the Luxury of an AMU shooter that does nothing but shoot! However it's better to spend more time shooting than tinkering with the guns and ammo! I'm working on my AW, it's getting better but when it's where I want it then I stop "fixing" and shoot more. But there will be a time I give up. Adam has a nice Morini that I will use for .22 distinguished. If I like it I will scope mount it and use it in Bullseye.

285wannab wrote:Thanks Len.
I am going to work on the 45degish stance for awhile.  I think over time it will become second nature and I will feel more solid.  The proof will be an increase/decrease in my average.
I would be interested in how other shooters hold their wrist.

For me standing at 45 or 75 or 85 my grip and wrist angle are the same.  My sights line up with my aiming eye.  My head needs to rotate more.  I have recently started trying out close to the 75-85 range.  The body absorbs more recoil since you now have more mass behind your arm.  Compared to a 45 deg stance my upper body will twist slightly.

IMO NPA in pistol is not as important as it is in rifle.  I see pistol is more of a Natural Area of Aim and not a point.

To me it is NPSA.  Natural Position of Sight Alignment (to the eye of course)

There is also best position of stability and strength.  Hope they are the same. 

Jack said "Hope they are the same."  I am finding out that for me they are not the same.  That is why I keep going back and forth between 45 deg and 75 deg. I now think it is more important to have a NPSA/NPA/NAA and keep working on the stablitity and strength than to force a position.

And Mr. Zins says NPA is BS! Maybe someone who took his clinic can elaborate on this and what his thoughts about it are.