AW-93 Group

First topic message reminder :

I have the AW-93. I have never been able to get a good group at any distance. Naturally the shorter the distance the better the group but so is my requirement. All my other .22s would shoot one hole at 50 feet, dime size at 25 yards and less than a Quarter (25 cents) at 50 yards. This gun has vertical stringing of about 2" at 50 yards and I can't figure out why. My groups were all fired from sand bag rest using various sights. I don't have Ransome rest grips for it and may have to buy a set. I have completely built a rear housing from Titanium, much better than the Aluminum the gun came with and a tighter fit but it didn't help. Purchased an Insight MRDS that has no Parallax at 50 yards but that didn't help either. Nor is the gun moving in the grips, I also made a 1911 grip adapter for it, it will not move! Same vertical stringing! Did manage to correct a trigger adjustment problem.
 Any Ideas??

 Frank

(1) I have the first 2 versions of Breznovich's scope mount. The first one simply attached like the iron sight, to handle the weight of the scope. The second version seemed better, it used the front pin that attached the iron sight but extended down the back side with a plug that fit into the clean-out hole with 2 jack screws that put tension on the sight mount pin. Better but it seemed to move on my gun. When I purchased various brands they did not fit the weaver base well. Having an older set of steel Weaver rings NIB I checked Breznovich's mount and it was perfect. The change is in the new scopes. However I found that the plug Breznovich used is smaller than the clean-out hole! The plug provides no support, I mentioned that to him at Perry last year.
(2) I have the slide fail to lock back many times, it will also release the side when a magazine is inserted. If you look close at the slide lock at the location that is supposed to contact the button on the magazine you will see it's touching the magazine. I plan to modify it next time I remove the slide lock.

OK Up date, I called Joe, he found that the windage screw is marked backwards! Right will move it left! That usually it takes him quite a few turns to get the sight adjusted. I mentioned that I figured the scope was marked wrong when adjusting right and impact moved left. I then used a lot of adjustment to get it over to the middle of the target. I mounted the scope again today. Made sure I looked at arrow direction and turn it left to go right. Took a few shots and it went left, thinking I made a mistake and turned it the wrong way as I did many times yesterday I turned it more left to go right, Impact moved left! OK be that way, doubled the amount and turned it as the arrow indicates Right. Impact moved to X ring! Either I'm drinking to much coffee or someone slipped something in it! So I loaded 5 more rounds and shot 5X time fire! I was happy so I went back to work that I wasn't doing! I will see how it shoots at 50 yards.
 Len, what size dot is on that UltraDot Micro?

2 moa

38Super!! wrote:Interesting thread.

Have 2 questions:

1,  What is the difference between the latest version of the Breznovich mount and the earlier version(s).

2.  Regarding the occasional lock back of the slide.  

Has anyone else experienced it?  I have.  I wonder if it is because of the type/brand of ammo.  Seems mine locks back better with Eley Target and Club and SK PistolMatch than with CCI SV or Federal 711B.  I haven't tested them to be sure.  I replaced the spring on the slide lock but that doesn't seem to have made any difference.

my aw rarely locks back, doesn't matter what ammo I use, as to the mount, mine is two years old, it may not be the newest but its newer than the original and has the two screws in the rear to tighten it but they were a little to short to get it real tight so I replaced them with longer ones that got it rock solid.

Mine always locks back. Never failed. Been the most reliable pistol I have ever owned. Now, adjusting the trigger, that's another story as mentioned by many above.

Joel

I have 4 magazines, one will not work, seems to lock in too high. I'm sure I can trim it to work but that's another day! One of the Magazines seems to work better than the other 3, The 2 that came with the gun work best in it but both will have lock-back problems though one more that the other. The one that has more lock-back problems than the other also has un-lock issues. Sometimes when inserting it the slide is released and most of the time loading the chamber with a round. That third also has both problems though more that the two that came with the gun. I think I know why but that too is another day.
 I cured one of the trigger problem with that bronze cover to add support to the second sear. Another hammer following problem is created by that heavy spring on the transfer bar that sets the first sear into the hammer so it becomes a "reconnection" issue when the adjustment is made to little or no take-up and small second sear engagement. I can pull the slide all the way back and let go 50 times while holding the trigger back and no problems, but if don't hold the trigger the hammer will follow 6 of 10 times when the slide is released. I thought it might be the larger trigger I installed but it will do the same thing when no trigger is on the mounting dovetail.

Based on this entire posting the AW-93 sounds like a 'Scud' missile. Too many good issue free pistols out there. Would rather shoot than repair )
No offense meant, but sounds like a real lemon.
Jon

ive adjusted my trigger using the instructions in the manual and never had a problem.

Jon Eulette wrote:Based on this entire posting the AW-93 sounds like a 'Scud' missile. Too many good issue free pistols out there. Would rather shoot than repair )
No offense meant, but sounds like a real lemon.
Jon

I don't think you can base an educated opinion on a gun by a few posts of one or two persons issues. I bet a poll would show a long list of  happy owners than it would unhappy ones. Many guns have traits, not locking back is not a big deal to me and im sure I could fix it easily.  ive found the aw93 to be one of the most reliable and accurate guns ive ever owned and ive owned about every decent one made with the exception of a pardini. The only gun I would count as its equal is  my 208s. The aw 93 never alibis and will drill the X at 50 all day long and requires almost no maintenance and nothing breaks. I doubt if it was a lemon it would have been the 22 used to win many national championships .

I too have followed the instructions to the letter. It does say to adjust the take-up to near 0 travel. However I do like my trigger to travel very little, Most think it's crisp but I can see and feel it move. Total travel is near 1/32" So I adjust the sear engagement screw to keep travel small. I can feel it move while shooing rapid fire and just keep my finger moving the trigger until it goes bang. I can easily adjust my Home-made gun to do that or anything else I want! Not that I did anything great, I copied the Baikal trigger arrangement. The Russian engineer deserves the credit. The German engineer changed it!
 I do agree with Dave, it has been very reliable. But I do think it has a few issues and they will begin to show up after a few years. I don't think that rear housing that supports the scope will last long and it will begin to create problems. The magazine issue may be as I mentioned the locking devise hitting the magazine. Being that it isn't a big concern of mine I'm waiting for some free time to work on it! The following issues don't happen when I'm shooting because I hold the trigger back in my follow thru but it is there. Again not a big concern so I'll do something about it time permitting. I seem to be getting it to shoot good, little problems are being corrected

Frank

Ive found small adjustments make big changes in not just the aw but in my 208s as well, moving one screw can effect several other things. Its hard to get everything in snyc once you have changed it from the original settings. I adjust the trigger bar to have at least enough space that it can move freely up and down without touching, also the screw under the trigger needs to be set where the sear rides securely and not right on the edge. Frank no disrespect but you just have too much knowledge and skill for your own good your looking for that perfect sweet spot, I found its better to find what works a 100% without fail and learn to shoot it.

Jon Eulette wrote:Based on this entire posting the AW-93 sounds like a 'Scud' missile. Too many good issue free pistols out there. Would rather shoot than repair )
No offense meant, but sounds like a real lemon.
Jon

It's not a free pistol, so that would be hard to compare. As a matter of fact, my free pistol is very picky with ammo and can offer some grief. As for the AW93, it sounds like there are a few that aren't happy, but isn't that true of anything? You MUST follow the instructions with regards to adjusting the trigger and as stated, small changes make big differences. Perhaps if the threads were much finer, you would have more feel, but if you are patient, you will get there.

When I bought my AW93 from Breznovich, I asked about buying some spare parts such as springs and firing pins. He said he would gladly sell them to me, but that I would never need them. He often sees pistols with 200,000 rounds through them that never need replacement parts as long as you take proper care.

Well, that's my $0.03,

Joel

Well I assume an expensive pistol should last a long time. But you have to remember Breznovich is selling you the gun, do you expect him to say it don't last long and you'll need a pile of spare parts? Every salesman will claim their product is great! When I hear that from someone that has one then I'm willing to accept it!
 Out of the box I had lock back problems and still have them, also the slide releases sometimes when magazine is inserted. I tried just bout every high end .22 ammo and it still does is. Never had problem with my Walthers, Hammerlis, and others. Even the Biakal didn't do that nor my home-made gun! His first scope mount was no good, his second a little better and I'm told he has a 3rd version. I have followed the instructions to adjust the trigger to the letter! Depending on what trigger you like it works BUT it will not work the way I like it! The Biakal and my home made version with adjust to that with no problems! That heavy spring on the transfer bar is a bad design and I'll bet it will need work after a while! The Aluminum housing and the way it holds the slide will eventually cause problems when it wears! The only thing holding the slide down is the contact with the Aluminum housing very near the barrel, as that wears the hammer will not be pushed down as far.
 Over all it's not a bad gun but does have a few flaws! As a Mechanical Engineer and Machinist I see them. That my $1000 opinion. I'm changing them on my gun!

Frank,
Can you post a few pictures of your home made gun?

he already has, page one about half way down, it looks like a Russian izh35

Dave's right, the homemade gun photo is on page 1 a few posts below the AW. Basically it is a copy of the IZH though all parts were made by me except a few screws, springs and the grips though the original grips I did make. There is some modification and additions that made it more reliable.

Hey Froneck, where'd ya get your ME? What was the curriculum focus? Sounds like you have a pretty diverse background. I work with 4 ME ' s and am always fascinated by the path they have taken to get where they are today. Unfortunately we don't see to many ME's that are pistolsmiths.
Jon

Posted the info in the trigger shoe topic. Though I never worked as an ME. Electronic Engineering was my field. But it came in handy with electro-mechanical interface. Back then drawings were done by hand but a few years ago I went to Penn State for AutoCAD. Love that and have it on my computer now, before I make anything I draw it on a CAD program! Everything I draw is done in Real time therefore all dimensions are exact so are the relationships to each other. Best engineering aid ever!!! Back in the 70's I started a machine shop and worked that up to 35,000 sq/ft of machinery! Followed my fathers dream! Also got tired of engineering, spent more time making things cheaper than better! Now am retired 3 years and tinker!

Frank,  Did the Micro improve the group size? Fit? Just curious.

Len

The new Micro did nothing to improve group size, Didn't get the UltraDot yet though it may be sitting at my PO box but it wasn't there Saturday. Lapping the crown did improve the Vertical stringing, max vertical displacement is 5/8" at 50 yards. Now I want to squeeze together the Horizontal width of about 1 1/4" though most of the time it's near 1" wide. But it may be me! I'm just resting that heel I made on the bench, no sandbags. Will test again at the club with sandbags and see what I get.
 I did get as I mentioned in a previous post the Holosun Micro to shoot in the X ring and shoot the same group as the Insight. The strange right/left movement has me concerned. As I was trying to get the sight adjusted I was moving both windage and elevation. When elevation was correct and I needed only to change windage the direction was as the arrow said it should be.

Frank

Here's what the some what completed AW with my version of the 1911 grip adapter loos like. The heel is made from Delrin and the bottom of the heel is flush with the magazine. It's beginning to shoot good, I'm liking the 1911 grips better than the Rink or the one that came with the gun. Still work in progress though. After I'm complete I'll have the Aluminum anodized and dyed black. I did remove one of the springs in the buffer, the small diameter plus my buffer is made from Aluminum all internal dimensions taken from the steel one with a few modification that meant nothing but lowered weight. Outside was rounded  for the same reason. I'll let everyone know if the spring removal helped the lock-back.

Up Date, I removed one of the 2 springs in that plunger located in that supposedly recoil buffer. The smaller but heavy wire one. Slide was much easier to pull all the way to the rear after the slide contacted the plunger. Shot a match Sunday. No noticeable change in recoil but it didn't change the problem of failing to lock the slide back.  Stayed about the same, maybe a little better but not much. If I pull the slide back with an empty magazine the lock snaps in place and is well engaged, Button on the magazine contacts the lock good! But one magazine will lock the slide sometimes the other almost never, I have another and it too almost never locks the slide back when the last round is fired. One time the slide went forward after being automatically locked back when I inserted the next full magazine. Striped a round and loaded the gun. Maybe I need more spring to slow the slide down!

Froneck wrote: Maybe I need more spring to slow the slide down!

You could be right Frank;

I know on M4 carbines with a known good magazines that on failure of the bcg to lock back can be caused by wrong spring or buffer weight causing the bcg to cycle too fast and cause this issue.

Good luck;
Clarence