Smith & Wesson 41 common repairs

Some info that may be of interest to some..
The small plunger is incorrect and was installed in this slide.. The top plunger is factory correct

Mis fires... really??

Slide cracked

Drag marks are evident on each side of the chamber.. The top edges of the sllide were mis fit, and peened over heavily.. The flared metal drug against the barrel extension, causing failure to fire, because the slide was not closing all the way..

A light .005/.008 off the top aids in preventing drag.

Weld repair in the white.. Increasing the radius at the corner "may" prevent another crack

Blued.. color match is fair

Re conditioned breechface, top corners chamfered to prevent peening.. More to follow on a liner job..

I love these photos.  Let me know if you need an apprentice....

Rough drilling of the barrel. It then gets reamed to a uniform size..usually .315

The liner has been turned.. Here, it is being trued, end to end dimension to .3135/.3140


finished liner

Ready to be trimmed to final length

Happiness is two 4 decimal indicators dial that read zero at the same time..

Chambering and crowning.. Chamber is single pointed to within .002 and then reamed. Crown is single point also.

Nice write up and great photos.  That model 41 looked like it was a mess.

Is that Rich's M41 Jerry?

JayhawkNavy02 wrote:Is that Rich's M41 Jerry?

The cracked slide is his. The liner is for different gun.
See you Sat..???

I wish.  Seeing Myra shoot is a blast.   I'll be at FT Benning for Interservice.

wow, I would have left that gun for the scrap heap.

Why, looks like repairs are moving along and another 41 comes back from the grave?

If Jerry does the work it will be better than when it left the factory.

Mr. Keefer,

I have followed you posts here and elsewhere on the 1911 and have just seen this and others on the 41.  Several of us are shooting 41's for Steel Challenge type competition.  Gilt edge accuracy is not required, but absolute reliability is.  These guns also get used hard (20k+ a year).  I have seen you comments on timing the extractor and the barrel notch to improve accuracy, any chance of a quick tutorial.

thanks

Brad

bradhe wrote:Mr. Keefer,

I have followed you posts here and elsewhere on the 1911 and have just seen this and others on the 41.  Several of us are shooting 41's for Steel Challenge type competition.  Gilt edge accuracy is not required, but absolute reliability is.  These guns also get used hard (20k+ a year).  I have seen you comments on timing the extractor and the barrel notch to improve accuracy, any chance of a quick tutorial.

thanks

Brad

Brad,
Please excuse my delay on answering your question.. Jumping thru hoops before Perry..
One of the most over looked and troublesome areas on the 41  is the extractor..Likewise for the 1911, but that's another story..
The .22 rim is a mere .022 wide and radiused. Very little for the extractor to grasp. One saving grace, is the blow back feature of the system.. The cartridge will follow the slide to the rear as the chamber pressure drops. I  had a gentleman bring a high dollar 22 in because  of an occasional stovepipe..The gun had no extractor at all. .Had been missing for several years, yet the gun functioned reasonably well.. That was mostly luck...Here are some photos of what I do to the 41 to increase function, reliability and accuracy..
In the first picture is a standard black plunger, and a polished plunger ready to install plunger.... I polish everything that moves or supports movement thru out the entire 41..

Next you can see the factory spring in the center, which after much use, is compressed/set. I replace if needed with a new full length spring.. I also polish the spring similar to the center stock spring.  On the extractor, you can see a small dot of tig placed so I can adjust the amount of engagement. I reduce the dot height, until I get what I want.. All extractors have too much reach, causing the case to push the extractor too far / or cam out as I call it,  as it passes thru feeding up the breechface.. The less effort the better feeding.

Here, I have ground a step in the extractor where the plunger makes contact.. I want the spring and extractor to work very free.. Some times the spring will feel as if  it is stacking.. The step is done  in .010 increments until I get the feel I want.. Smooth and slick. Also pay attention to the spring bore in the slide.. I often use a small home made lap to smooth the bore up.. Some are very rough, and often rusty or gunked up.
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The next two pics show how I set the extractor face to grind, and alter the angle to minimize cam out from the breechface extractor slot. This is super important, and I spend much time with this.. I don't want any more cam out than necessary.. Too much will prevent the breechface from  fully closing/light hits, and it will also pull all the slide clearances to  one side, which can effect accuracy.  The extractor slot is a radius.. After years of struggle it finally dawned on me that an angle would be easier to tune/adjust.. So when I line 41/ HS / Ruger or rebarrel a conversion it gets a 45 degree angle opposed to the radius..The new Marvel Conversions changed to the angle some years ago to combat and eliminate chamber wall break thru. Hope this gives you some insight on the 41.. Friction is the enemy.. Polish and lube.. Goodluck

Jerry,

It looks like you are not relying on any threading or shoulder-stops to aid in keeping the liner in place, so what kind of adhesive are you using to hold the barrel sleeve in place?  Will it hold up to bluing and higher temps?

-Ron

Yes it will with stand the bluing solution..
680 or 620 Loctite

Jerry; I'm thinking of using a 41 recoil spring in my AW. Can you give me the Id and OD of he 41 Spring plus uncompressed and completely compressed length?

Thanks very much, that is quite helpful.

One more question:  do the last two pictures show the before and after for the extractor or are they the same.  I can't tell the difference between the pics and am traveling at the moment so can't compare to a stock one.

thanks again

Brad

No, it is showing how I set the extractor up from parrallel to reduce the material on the nose to change or limit the engagement with the slot on the breechface. Filing/grinding by hand and eyeing the results can be frustrating.. The comparator always gives a reference by which to judge the progress.
The first photo is taking a long cut on the full face but is set at an angle that allows me to avoid the very tip..
The last photo shows an aggressive angle that removes a  lot of material that effects and controls the amount of cam out at the in battery position, which is the cause of many light hits issues..
That extractor is a factory untouched, so the tip is not shaped properly..

question about the 41 bolt...  should the face of the bolt be flush with the slide or slightly forward which mine is.  also how much clearance should there be in the rim recess verses the typical 22 case rim...  my stock bolt recess certainly is not flush with case rim.


I'm getting an occasional failure to fire. what appears to be a light firing pin strike.

 have gone to a new stock (7.5) recoil spring and new firing pin spring.( Wolff). Better but still see one occasionally.


thanks



Also this is on a Clark 5.5 barrel.

Think I found my answer in one of Jerry's older post on the bolt and headspace.

Another area to reduce drag and ejector  hang up. This frame  has a very poorly machined slide stop/ejector pocket.. Very rough, uneven with a large radius in the corners...Cleaned it up so it seats well within the pocket and has nop drag.. 

The other side of that equation is, the pocket in the slide is either too shallow of too narrow.. Opened up as it should  be.

I'll continue with this, as this gun had so much wrong with it.. I continue to read threads on .22 functioning issues..or what ammo is the best for my 41, or my conversion, or my Pardini such as the one presently on Target Talk. There are so many things that effect the function of a .22, that it is difficult ever cover them all..
Here I have placed a dot of tig on the ejector / slide stop, to raise it into the correct position. (95 % of that will be shaped away.. The second pic shows it installed.

Final fit.. You can see that it does not bottom out in the recess... A small amount makes a large difference in how the case makes contact with the ejector
Ever wonder why the 41 breech face is always so battered??  The distance between the hammer face and the breech face is 1.717 

The breech block is 1.7625 So the hammer exerts excessive force against the rear of the breech block every time the hammer drops.


Firing pin protrusion is .039 ... respectable..

Headspace is .046... Good for an average set up that will shoot what ever is handy...not for an all out  match gun..

Lots of stock on the rear of the firing pin to remove, and reduce the pressure on the breech block.

cutting a 45° on the rear of the pin.. No need for a super large face contact.

Uneven surface of the on the under side of the block.. Pushes against the hammer and binds

Finished and contoured