Proposed CMP rules for electronic targets

by sixftunda 12/4/2015, 5:00 am

http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/ESTScoringRules.pdf

This is a very important addition to the rules that everyone needs to look over. There will be significant differences between a paper match and a match using e-targets.

Rules for scoring refire strings are completely different. If you shoot a refire because of excessive hits you will receive the actual score of the refire target. So if the high ten on the previous target was for example a 90 and you clean the refire string, you will receive a 100 instead of a 90.

Also required at e-target matches will be "verifiers" for each shooter on the line. So if there are 50 shooters on the line for the first relay, the second relay must be there to observe the first relay shooters, essentially doubling the number of people on the firing line. If you are a range officer at Nationals, I would love to hear your opinion on that. Not sure what happens at a smaller match where there is only one relay.

by Danehogle 12/4/2015, 7:05 am

If you have any experience at Perry, and think about how these targets and rules will be implemented. You can see the hell we are in for. With 200 targets, 100 for slow fire 50 yard, and 100 for sustained fire 25 yard. We would need at least 6 or 7 relays. Then 8 relays for team matches. All the supposed time saved by not having to go down range will be taken up by walking between ranges, and moving shooters to new targets for refires. While still ankle deep in water and mud.....

by **Wobbley** 12/4/2015, 8:01 am

High power has been runnin this way for decades. Team matches are sent a scorer or two from the adjacent team. During individual firing only the scorer the shooter and match officials are allowed past the ready line.

by sixftunda 12/4/2015, 8:13 am

Are rifle shooter squashed as close together as pistol shooters?

by KevinB 12/4/2015, 8:21 am

Closer, the point gets pretty crowded shooting the NTT. 2 shooters firing on one target with a coach and a scorer sitting right on them.

Once again, we will now have a sport in which everyone shoots all year with one target system and rulebook and then goes to nationals to shoot a completely different target system and rulebook. Makes sense. Rolling Eyes

by jmdavis 12/4/2015, 9:21 am

KevinB wrote:
Once again, we will now have a sport in which everyone shoots all year with one target system and rulebook and then goes to nationals to shoot a completely different target system and rulebook. Makes sense.

This may be the biggest issue with E targets (aside from turning).

I have spent most of my life designing systems and I still can't figure out the logic of spending $6.5 million on E targets when a simple electromechanical system is "too expensive to maintain." Maintenance keeps things working!

The CMP discovered the importance of proper target maintenance on the rifle ranges in Talledega. BUT, the problem with that discovery is that some internet research would have shown the issues BEFORE the purchase. Gheelong Range in Australia has run the KTS targets for over a decade and even have a web page concerning their maintenance. The time to rebuild each rifle target is on the order of 10 man hours and certain targets (primarily the mid-range targets) require a rebuild every 3000 or so rounds for rifle. Now few target rifles use bullets as large as .451, add to that our use of JSWCs and JHPs for 50 yards and all leg matches and the issues start to become clear.

Here is the target maintenance page from Gheelong.

http://www.geelongrifleclub.asn.au/electronic-targets/

The fact that we are shooting large subsonic bullets may or may not increase maintenance schedules. But logic suggests that it would.

Mike

by Schaumannk 12/4/2015, 6:51 pm

Pardon my ignorance about the details of how rifle match is run, but it seems to me that electronic targets will substantially decrease the amount of time required to shoot a rifle match because it eliminates pit duties, and rifle matches already use a team format with a spotter/verifier.

However the opposite is true of pistol, because now instead of each individual shooter scoring the shooter to his left, we now need, a verifier for each shooter on the line, who at some point is going to have to switch places to allow the other competitor to shoot, essentially doubling the time that each individual pistol shooter must spend on the line for each 900 series.

What happens if the verifier doesn't show up? Or is late? Will they be DQed from their turn shooting, or is the CMP and NRA going to provide a bunch of extra warm bodies standing around to fill in for this eventuality?

If the electronic scoring system is so great, why would you need a "verifier" to begin with? Having shot competitively for a short eight years, I personally cannot guarantee that in rapid fire, I would be able to determine if every round entered the target, it was crossfired, a miss, or a squib. I can watch the gun, or watch the target. Not both at the same time.

by Jerry Keefer 12/4/2015, 8:38 pm

This just gets more and more ridiculous as it progresses.

by **Wobbley** 12/4/2015, 11:45 pm

The duties of the scorer/verifier are spelled out on the rifle rule books for all to read. If the scorer is not present, there are volunteers available and the scorer is usually DQd.

This has all been worked out before.

by Fire Escape 12/5/2015, 12:02 am

Schaumannk wrote:Pardon my ignorance about the details of how rifle match is run, but it seems to me that electronic targets will substantially decrease the amount of time required to shoot a rifle match because it eliminates pit duties, and rifle matches already use a team format with a spotter/verifier.

However the opposite is true of pistol, because now instead of each individual shooter scoring the shooter to his left, we now need, a verifier for each shooter on the line, who at some point is going to have to switch places to allow the other competitor to shoot, essentially doubling the time that each individual pistol shooter must spend on the line for each 900 series.

What happens if the verifier doesn't show up? Or is late? Will they be DQed from their turn shooting, or is the CMP and NRA going to provide a bunch of extra warm bodies standing around to fill in for this eventuality?

If the electronic scoring system is so great, why would you need a "verifier" to begin with? Having shot competitively for a short eight years, I personally cannot guarantee that in rapid fire, I would be able to determine if every round entered the target, it was crossfired, a miss, or a squib. I can watch the gun, or watch the target. Not both at the same time.

Yes this would double the amount of time that a shooter had to be on the line. It would however compensate for some or all of that time by eliminating the time spent going down range to score or change the targets.

If the scorer does not show up he or she would/could be disqualified but I never saw that situation come up over years of rifle shooting so ......

Again, using rifle shooting as a reference, in rapid fire, the scorer is expressly NOT supposed to watch the target, this was rather strongly enforced in the years I shot at Perry, scorer's scopes had to be turned away from the targets. The responsibility of the scorer while firing is in progress is to ensure how many rounds were fired and (presumably) if any were early (early would pretty much HAVE to be a ND as shooters start from standing position and transition to sitting or prone after the targets appear from the pits) or late which does require a peripheral view as to the targets being up in shooting position. This is pretty easy at Perry in rifle competitions, the firing lines are so long you can watch the gun and still see targets in the background.

Some things can certainly be adapted from rifle. The rules as written to accommodate e-targets thus far seem to be based entirely on rifle without any effort to maintain 'Bullseye' in it's traditional form.

Bruce

by john bickar 12/5/2015, 2:28 pm

Jerry Keefer wrote:This just gets more and more ridiculous as it progresses.

Proposed CMP rules for electronic targets 7ac

by sixftunda 12/5/2015, 2:32 pm

So the matches run faster but the shooters spend more time on the line than when we do it with paper targets.

Why do we need verifiers when e-targets are so much better?
(Rhetorical question)

by C.Perkins 12/5/2015, 2:41 pm

by jmdavis 12/5/2015, 2:44 pm

I think that these rules are for the rifle side, but I could be wrong. Most of the problems that I have heard about at Talledega have been related to the rifle range. If anyone knows anything about specific problems on the pistol side it would be great to know.

by sixftunda 12/5/2015, 2:53 pm

It states at the top of the document that it's for service rifle and pistol.

by dronning 12/5/2015, 3:56 pm

sixftunda wrote:It states at the top of the document that it's for service rifle and pistol.

The CMP has been actively seeking feedback from the high power community. I think the title may have included pistol by accident (at least I hope so). In either case it makes sense that they start with the rifle rules and modify them to fit pistol.

It's up to us to give constructive feedback.

Too late this time around but this is how they are developing the rules for eTargets
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=179246

- Dave

Range testing:
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=178120

by rreid 12/6/2015, 8:50 pm

Verifiers aren't really going to be needed for pistol, or are they? If they are, it might work for the nti and President's, but the NRA will have to come up with something different for the 2700.

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