"Marine Load" different charges for short line vs. long?

I realize the "marine load" is listed as anywhere from 4.1 to 4.5 grains of VV N310 with a nosler 185gr JHP.  Regardless, If you shoot say 4.5 grs. at the long line, do people load a lighter short line charge with the same bullet for the short line for less recoil?





PLEASE, NO "I'm a real man who shot with issued Hardball" comments.

KevinB wrote:I realize the "marine load" is listed as anywhere from 4.1 to 4.5 grains of VV N310 with a nosler 185gr JHP.  Regardless, If you shoot say 4.5 grs. at the long line, do people load a lighter short line charge with the same bullet for the short line for less recoil?





PLEASE, NO "I'm a real man who shot with issued Hardball" comments.

Kevin
To win a NASCAR race, the crew chief/mechanics will use every advantage allowable.
Recoil equals lost points. I don't care how tough the man is..
So, you will score better with a load that is more controllable. I would not shoot expensive Noslers at the short line.. Cast lead is both more economical, and manageable.

Jerry,

I should have specified that this is for EIC matches.  I have 1500 Zero 185 JHP's and a pound of N310 at the ready for my Leg match campaign in 2016.

I started with 4.2 of N310 for my new 45 EIC gun... wonder how low folks have gone with 310 for the short line. also started with a 14.5 recoil spring.

Kevin,  I suggest that you compromise. You do not have to shoot the 185 blistering hot to be accurate. The other side of the coin is that you can not reduce the speed of a jacketed bullet as much as you would a lead bullet. I would choose a load that was right in the middle and go for it. I don't like a bunch of bullets that look the same but have different loads. Avoid the potential confusion and load them all the same. That's what I do with my 185's. I use 4.2 gr BE in all of them. I don't have a N310 load. There are other reasons for sticking with one load. My hardball pistol is tuned for the load I shoot. I have no desire to change recoil springs between SF and TF. I know you can have a spring that works for both loads in the pistol but that is just another form of compromise. This is of course my opinion YMMV.


Len 

Every 185gr bullet  I load has the same powder charge. Firm believer in KISS. 

I'm prone to agree with your method.

I agree with Jerry. Take any advantage you can. Currently I use 1 load: 4.5gn of N310 with Nosler/Zero jacketed 185's. Very accurate for the long line.

I would like to use a lighter load for sustained fire but I stopped using lead due to elevated blood lead levels. I didn't think about the need for a lighter spring with a lighter load. Changing springs in the middle of a match doesn't appeal much. Hmmmmm...

The way I prevent a mix up, is to use only WW primers in long line ammo.. The brass color is distinctive and allows them to be easily separated from the short line which is loaded with silver primers..

Jerry Keefer wrote:The way I prevent a mix up, is to use  only WW primers in long line ammo.. The brass color is distinctive and allows them to  be easily separated from the short line which is loaded with silver primers..

Or you can go crazy with sharpies

I load the 185gr JHP for the long line and and 185gr HPSWC for the short line.  So far no lead worries.

- Dave

I am trying to "roughly" replicate this load, but not having much success.  I have 4.4 of N310, 185 Noslers loaded to 1.255 COAL.  Average fps about 745.  Accurate, but the snap, bang, and recoil is substantial.  Which should I adjust first, the powder or the COAL?

devildog,

I don't think you will want to go much below 745fps if you want 50 yard accuracy. 25yd stuff can go lower though.

I find it easier to segregate different loads by make of case.  So for the long line use Starline an for the short line everything else.  Often I use whatever primer is available so I can't always use Win for the long lone.

If you read Jon's, Jerry and other terrific shooters advice, no surprise, it's pretty dang good.   I don't have their credentials, but if I may take some liberty and add on to their post I would like too.   The USAMU, and USMC Pistol Team at Interservice championships were using reduced loads on the short line.  Not just 45, but 9mm as well.  I didn't see any spring changes, but I plan on trying based on some great advice from Jon.

The exception were USMC Tyro shooters from the rifle team.  They were handed TZZ and a slap on the behind.  They were struggling to get 10 on paper for 5 days.  I'm not sure they were set up for success, but they really just complained about being there and how much they disliked pistol the whole time.   TZZ Match is great stuff but a handful and it was apparent that recoil negatively impacted their short line performance.

Derek

In the old days ( I know I know) the tyro pistol shooters were issued old rattle battle M14s and some Special Ball M118 for rifle leg day.  So it does even out.

mspingeld wrote:I agree with Jerry. Take any advantage you can. Currently I use 1 load: 4.5gn of N310 with Nosler/Zero jacketed 185's. Very accurate for the long line.
 I didn't think about the need for a lighter spring with a lighter load. Changing springs in the middle of a match doesn't appeal much. Hmmmmm...

I agree with not changing springs and we don't.. That's why, I have become a strong frame mount advocate..David Sams has been correct for many years.. Taking that weight from the slide, allows endless tuning possibilities.
Lead is another advantage.. It does not have to travel at the same pressures/velocities as jacketed projectiles to be accurate. 690/700 at long line is fine.. I am running light, as very light loads in her gun, and still using a 14 pound spring. I selected that spring, because that is the spring that pulls her back on target in sustained fire.. We tested numerous springs, and that works best for her.. The spring can help pull the gun back flat when matched to the shooter's stance and grip strength, similar to the race gun games.. Now granted, the gun has had many mods to make it run light, but we are back to the NASCAR analogy again.. or in drag racing during my time.." Speed costs  money...How fast do you want to go..??
Some where, I have a picture of the gun in recoil, the case is in the air, not far from the gun, and the slide is forward and locked in battery, yet her arm is not far from flat.. I will try to find it..

Here is one of those race gun guys showing why he runs lighter springs and lighter loads.   Shooting is at roughly 3mins and on.    I think you will be able to see how a heavy spring and light spring efffect the shooters recoil. 

Currently shooting N310, Zero 185, 10 lb spring. Have not chrono tested but empty brass doesn't fly far. Gonna test 4.0, 3.9 & 3.8 with swaged hollow points for function and accuracy.

devildog wrote:I am trying to "roughly" replicate this load, but not having much success.  I have 4.4 of N310, 185 Noslers loaded to 1.255 COAL.  Average fps about 745.  Accurate, but the snap, bang, and recoil is substantial.  Which should I adjust first, the powder or the COAL?

If you want to drop the charge you can and I would shorten the OAL the marine oal for a nosler 185 was always 1.200 well shorter than your 1.255

KevinB wrote:I

PLEASE, NO "I'm a real man who shot with issued Hardball" comments.

BUT, we did, we HAD to!

Ron Habegger

No Ron, we GOT to. I loved every minute of shooting issued ammo. Issued is another way of saying FREE. Getting issued ammo is also another way of saying that were getting a little long in the tooth. I did love it, but, you won't see me loading any full power loads ever again. Hmmm, not for the .45 anyhow.

Len

Yeah Len agree with that! Another thing was the whole affair was a buck a match! Imagine that, $1 buck for 10 points + 30 pieces of brass AND all you could see if sandwiched by the military boys.  Then brass was a big deal. Now the brass problem is where to keep it all.

Those were the days my friend!

Ron Habegger

Length question.  This thread has 1.200 and 1.255 mentioned, Nosler says 1.275.  Why the big difference?

I go 1.205 -1.210

Follow up: After testing 4.0, 3.9 & 3.8 of N310 with Zero swaged hollow points (185gn), all 3 were equally accurate at 25 yards. 3.8 had a couple of FTEs. Settled on 3.9 as my new short line load. Nice and soft. Shot a 282 at league with it. A personal best and functioned perfectly. Will report back after my next 2700 on March 6th.