Roll trigger technique

Hello,
I have been using a friends "battle axe" roll trigger for the past couple weeks. I like it and ordered myself one but I have s couple questions about technique and timing. Specifically, I am asking about slow fire, but I think concepts are probably the same.

The first question is about how much time is spent increasing trigger pressure until the shot breaks.
1. How long does it take once once pressure is applied for the trigger to start to roll? How long does it take once the trigger is rolling for the shot to break?

The next questions are about how you "know" when to begin applying pressure.
2. What is the indicator to begin applying trigger pressure?
-Are you in the black, but not settled? Or are you settled, but not in the black? Or something else?
3. At what point does the trigger start rolling?

Thanks

Corey

The answers to all your questions depend on you, the individual shooter.  The optimum is to have the uninterrupted shot break as you reach your steadiest hold within your aiming area.  The answers to your questions are determined by you, through study and training.

I will simply suggest that you find the most determined trigger operation that has no "stops" within the action, and can be repeated over and over.  Then you can work on the rest of your answers.

The basic difference between crisp and roll is that with a crisp trigger pressure is applied but no movement is felt and roll the movement is felt. The hammer sear engagement it about the same though some like a looong roll then the engagement is greater. Simply put the sear must move the amount that the engagement is. With crisp the sear don't move until the pull weight is applied while depending on the type of roll the sear is moving as weight is applied and complete disengagement occurs at the pull weight.
 If I had to choose the type I want for slow fire it would be crisp but I shoot roll because during timed and rapid fire I can feel the trigger moving and know it will soon  fire so I concentrate on keeping the red dot on the center of the target. The felt movement lets me know that I'm applying pressure that will cause the gun to fire so that it keeps my concentration on keeping the sights on the target. In my case when using a crisp trigger especially in rapid fire the non movement of the trigger directed my concentration from sights to trigger pull, the more I thought about the trigger the heavier it felt. Knowing I'm running out of time I would jerk an 8 or a 7 then fire 4 more 10's and often the last shot was a skidder. With roll I don't have that problem and complete the string before the target starts to turn.
 So getting back to your question the old rule is keep the trigger moving, as soon as you attain your minimum arc start the trigger moving and keep it moving until the shot breaks while doing everything possible to keep the sights aligned with the center of the target. If you begin to notice your arc increasing put the gun down, reset the trigger if it's not self resetting. After a short pause to rest the arm repeat the attempt to make a perfect shot.

Those are good, smart questions.

1a. Immediately.
1b. Shortly after 1a.
2. The top of recoil from the previous shot.
3. See 1a.

Johns answer is great for timed and rapid fire, being that you were wanting slow fire advise it should be modified. Though as you said the concepts are the same but the difference is in the immediate start of trigger pull (1) and being there is a lot of time in Slow fire (2) is not necessary. There are a few top shooters that do shoot slow fire in somewhat of a slow timed fire rate but someone intending to move up in classification I would think it better to shoot one shot at a time then customize the process as time goes bye. When first pointing the pistol at the target you notice that your arc of movement begins to get smaller until you reach the minimum arc you are capable of at the time, then is the time to start the pressure. That minimum arc will last about 20 seconds or so depending on the shooter so your shot needs to break within that time period. If not bring the gun down and start again.
 When shooting timed and rapid then follow John's advise however after a while shooting slow fire the amount of time needed to attain minimum arc will be learned, apply the time to timed and rapid so that when you get ready to fire the string lift the pistol about equal amount of time before so that when the targets turn you have reached the minimum arc.

Ed, 

Do you have any advice for an issue where you are in your minimum arc of movement, but you lose visual concentration on the dot or target (depending on which you are focusing on)? This is an issue that I experience sometimes and I am working on holding drills or more accurately concentration drills to increase my concentration. 

I have about 10 seconds of good visual focus and concentration before I start feeling like I have to take a shot.... NOW. NOW seldom seems to be a good time to take the shot.

In my opinion roll or crisp trigger requires same execution of trigger squeeze. Only difference ishow they feel. 
1. Take up trigger slack/pre-travel on bench.
2. Raise/lift pistol to highest arc above target.
3. Start squeezing trigger when lowering into aiming area. Approx half of trigger weight should be applied by time you get to black. Lowering pistol is a deliberate part of executing shot.
4. Continue squeezing trigger until shot breaks. Refined aiming is fairly quick because of deliberate lowering of pistol into aiming area. You have to absolutely trust that your aiming area/shake/movement is acceptable. In otherwords everyone can only hold so good; master holds better typically than marksman. 

Trigger squeeze is constant or continuous. Trsin to be able to squeeze fast, medium and slow. Everyday your confidence/ability to squeeze trigger is different. Physically we are different as well. This way you have the tools for all situationa. I frequently adjust my squeeze during a match to compensate. 

So to me trigger roll or crisp isn't an issue, but how you squeeze it is! I prefer short roll because if I'm squueezing and they're not breaking I can just feel trigger movement which gives me confidence that shot will break soon. 
Jon

Thanks Jon for the reply! That is about the same shot process that I have came up with over the last couple weeks. I decided that before I lower the pistol to the target I would take up the trigger slack and apply ~1 lb of pressure. As I got to the black I would begin applying more pressure to get the trigger "rolling" and not stop until the shot breaks. It takes probably 6-8 seconds once the dot enters the black for the shot to break. This is very different from what I was doing. I would have the dot in the black for 6-8 seconds and then start applying trigger pressure. I think this part has been huge.

Currently in my dry fire training I am working mostly on holding drills. I will set a timer for 20 seconds on/20 seconds off. I go through my normal shot process and time it so as I am lowering to the black the 20 second timer starts. I make my shot then hold the follow through with the trigger still pulled for the remainder of the 20 seconds. Then I rest and repeat 30 times. This takes roughly 20 minutes to complete. I feel this is improving my hold (hard to quantify) but I notice my problem area that I am focusing on is getting that smooth trigger pull without have the dot jump when the trigger breaks. One thing I am going to start tracking is how many "good" shots I make out of 30. By "good" I mean smooth trigger with no dot jump when the shot breaks. Would blank wall drills be a good drill for eliminating the dot jump??

Definately must be blank wall. Target is a distraction for that.
Jon

jmdavis wrote:Ed, 

Do you have any advice for an issue where you are in your minimum arc of movement, but you lose visual concentration on the dot or target (depending on which you are focusing on)? This is an issue that I experience sometimes and I am working on holding drills or more accurately concentration drills to increase my concentration. 

I have about 10 seconds of good visual focus and concentration before I start feeling like I have to take a shot.... NOW. NOW seldom seems to be a good time to take the shot.

It's hard to work from a distance, but my first impression is that you are not ready to fire when the shot needs to break.  There is no reason to wait for your minimum arc to initiate the trigger.  In fact, you should start that portion of the process before your steadiest hold, so it fires near the beginning of that time frame.  Maybe connect your focus to your trigger operation such that as the pressure increases, so does your focus.  To the original question, if you have time, release the pressure and restart the trigger operation along with a refocus.

As to increasing your attention span, you can work on that anytime and anywhere by simply focusing on something and remaining there for a while.  A good thing to practice on at home is a target with exceptional holes in it.  Study the holes and think about all the details you can until you are lost in the moment.  Take that focus to the range.

Never mind

Thanks Ed. I have recently definitely been waiting too long to begin the trigger squeeze. I discovered that the trigger on my pistol was light the other day (as in 1.25 lbs by my measurement). I think this was making me hesitate. I have adjusted it back up to 2 lbs and last night's match went better once I remembered to adjust for the difference between 50 feet and 25 yards.

Telewreck,
Do 2 shot drills with your bullseye app on repeat for 20 minutes and plug the roll into your process.

Your slow fire process should be like the first shot of the 2 shot drill.

It really is that simple.

Thanks for the training idea Rob. Are talking about doing the 2 shot drill for live fire? If for dry fire, do you manually reset the hammer?

Live fire.

It will probably be less than 50 shots.

Telewreck wrote:Thanks for the training idea Rob. Are talking about doing the 2 shot drill for live fire?  If for dry fire, do you manually reset the hammer?

Don't you guys do sustained dry fire?  I do!

DISCLAIMER: Always be sure your dry firing is attempted without ammo in the vicinity.  Still, always keep the gun in a safe orientation.

I tie a string to my slide with the other end around a magazine, such that with my off hand around the magazine and against my chest, there is a little slack.  After a short follow through I cycle the slide via the string and perform the next shot.

I must confess that with some guns you will have to be creative.  But even with those that resist allowing a string to be attached, you can usually find a way to "DRY FIRE" them repeatedly, while held in front of you safely, by cycling with your off hand, such that you can "practice" the trigger operation.  For unsafe ones that need a magazine to dry fire, you can use a magazine shell without the spring, follower and base.

Ed Hall wrote:

Telewreck wrote:Thanks for the training idea Rob. Are talking about doing the 2 shot drill for live fire?  If for dry fire, do you manually reset the hammer?

Don't you guys do sustained dry fire?  I do!

DISCLAIMER: Always be sure your dry firing is attempted without ammo in the vicinity.  Still, always keep the gun in a safe orientation.

I tie a string to my slide with the other end around a magazine, such that with my off hand around the magazine and against my chest, there is a little slack.  After a short follow through I cycle the slide via the string and perform the next shot.

I must confess that with some guns you will have to be creative.  But even with those that resist allowing a string to be attached, you can usually find a way to "DRY FIRE" them repeatedly, while held in front of you safely, by cycling with your off hand, such that you can "practice" the trigger operation.  For unsafe ones that need a magazine to dry fire, you can use a magazine shell without the spring, follower and base.

This seems way too artificial to me.

I would think starting off target, like from where recoil puts you after a shot, and coming back on target while starting the trigger process would be more like actual firing. No monkeying around with my left hand or changing my process.

Hey Ed,

Any chance you could post a pic of how you pull the slide back, or a video of the whole process in action?

Corey

Telewreck wrote:Hey Ed,

Any chance you could post a pic of how you pull the slide back, or a video of the whole process in action?

Corey

I will have to think about how to accomplish that...

As I posted in another topic, I use a revolver with the Bullseye timer app for sustained fire practice. I shoot double action, so the principle is similar to a roll trigger in that you have to start pulling the trigger before the sights are lined up on the bull.