9mm Range Officer - better bullets - better pistol?

Wife and I shoot 9mm RO with red-dot sight mounted into the non-standard sight cut.  Of course, the guts of RO have been replaced.
Yes, 45ACP is probably a better round for BE.  But at least we are shooting 1911s.
Digesting many contributions on this list seems to indicate a preference for 115 grain JHP bullets with a hint of more powder at 50 yards than at 25 yards.  Have been using 115 HAP with about 5 grains of WSF.  Used Berry 115 HB for practice.  Questions that I hope this experienced group might answer are:

What are the odds of an improvement in accuracy, without big increase in recoil, going to 124 grain bullet?

Mindful that one can buy HAB bullets and Roze seems never to have regular Zero bullets in stock, what might one expect from a change from 115 HAP to Zero 115 Conical JHP?

What other bullets are favored for use in 9mm RO?

. . . and then the wild card:  as a present to my wonderful wife, what fabrication facility do you recommend to craft a 9mm BE pistol that must be able to mount a red-dot sight close to the barrel's axis?
Thanks in advance.   Mac

Mac2,
 I have been testing various loads in my 9mm RO. I just got a shipment from Magnus bullets and will soon be testing his 125gr JHP, 130gr L-swc and a 147gr L-fp. I have got good results with both the 115gr HAP or XTP and the 147gr XTP. Recoil is comparable to both loads. Since I load less powder in the 147 I don't feel any difference when shooting either. I lean towards the HAP bullets since they cost less and are just as accurate or more. They don't make a 147 HAP or I would give them a try. I will also be testing these additional bullets in a 38 super barrel. It is storming here now so the 50kt winds might skew any 50 yd tests.

previous test results:  https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t5192-the-good-not-so-good-and-the-ugly-9mm-range-test


I have another 38 super barrel (5") coming and I will be testing that also.

I don't notice any recoil difference with 115gn and 124gn bullets. I think most of the recoil I feel is the slide.
The thing I find with 9x19 is that dropping down in velocity does not produce great accuracy, so most accuracy loads range from mid-range to MAX, so the recoil is not that different.
115gn bullets haven't been that good for me, but given the results others have, that seems like the first weight to try.
I find that, in general, 0.356-0.357" jacketed bullets are a bit more accurate than 0.355" bullets.
Bullets I really like are 121gn Zero 38 super JHPs and Montana Gold 125gn .38 JHP.

9MM 115gr HAP 1,100fps (5.4gr WSF) <1.5" @ 50yd.  KC built 1911 with KKM 1-32 twist barrel.  

- Dave

THANKS.  I will keep an eye on the Zero 121 to see if it becomes available.  Using what I know, I will continue to use Berry 115 HB for simple practice and 115 HAP for serious practice AND load a series of hotter 115 HAP loads to test.  [for some indoor (25 feet) qualifications where speed was critical, I have used as little as 4.65 grains of WSF behind 115 HAP - ejection was reliable, but weak]  . . . consistently, I have been informed that 9mm for bullseye needs (at least at 50 yards) to run hot.
I continue to be keen to learn more about what works for 9mm in RO for CF bullseye.  Thanks again,  Mac

[Dave:  tell more about "KC Built" 1911 - Red-dot mounted?]

Mac2 wrote:[Dave:  tell more about "KC Built" 1911 - Red-dot mounted?]

My buddy Mark and I each ordered a 9MM from KC about the same time.  Mark had slide mounted optics and I went with the Red Buff frame mount.  Mark went with a crisp trigger I went with one of KC's roll triggers.  Both have 1-32 twist KKM .355 barrels.  Both can shoot Atlantic Arms 115gr JHP <1.5" (10 shot groups 50yds).  I have at least 5 groups < 1" using HAP or XTP bullets all the HAP groups have been around 1.25".  Of 50 HAP rounds shot on RR I had 2 flyers (out 1/2") which I'm pretty sure were operator error those 2 groups were still under 2".

Sorry for the poor quality photo and the ugly SkarkSkin grips.

The 9 is in the middle.  The 45 on the right came up for sale on TargetTalk after the owner couldn't shoot any more due to an injury.  I love the 9mm so much I just couldn't pass it up.  The 9mm has been updated with a standard length trigger since this photo.  The Nelson is on a Les Baer lower and has one of KC's drop in roll triggers too.

The 9mm is not a easy gun to get accurate compared to a 45, unless you throw a lot more money into it and Yes the 45 is a better round for bullseye and also a required round, the 9mm is not. You would imo  see a much faster advance if you went to a 45 which you must do anyway if you plan to compete in real 2700 matches.

Thanks.  I did a google search in an effort to find "KC."  The most close hit points to this site:
www.kcskustomcreations.com/
However, one can not see anything at that site without a username and password.

Picture of the 9mm (middle) does not make clear how the large red-dot sight is mounted.
The frame (sorry but this program has a mind of its own) attachment must be on the other side.

Conventional wisdom seems to be that 9mm can not compete with 45 ACP - leaving aside the issue of a three or four day competition.
The pivotal issue is to assist my good wife of many years enjoying (along with me as assistant) bullseye (and some other) competitions.
To approach 45ACP, I gave her a Ruger 6711 (series 7, 4.25", light!!, 1911).  She has shot it (iron sights) with some off-the-shelf 185 grain ball and
found the experience to be fun.  The guts of the 6711 - as is customary - have been replaced to provide a good trigger.  (That was not quite as simple as it sounds because something inside of the 6711 is not exactly standard 1911.)  Thin grips were substituted to enhance the trigger reach - substituting a shorter trigger did not work.  Additionally, a small room has been dedicated to reloading 9mm with a smaller Dillon (thus reloading can take place even in the Winter).  In theory, one can swap tooling, but I doubt it.  Considering the large effort it took to get 9mm RO to have good triggers and to have Red-dot sights (both must exist for us) it appears in hindsight that contracting with the right gunsmith to craft a 1911 with required features would have been a smart move.  A move that could still be made.

I hope that it is not too far off the target to ask the experts here to note gunsmiths or firms that craft quality 9mm and 45ACP pistols with provision for low mounted red-dot sights.  Some of the people I have looked at seem not to provide provisions for red-dot sights.  Glock G34 MOS and G41 MOS are examples of a stock 9mm and 45ACP with desirable features - but who knows about their actual performance.

So:  who is KC?  who crafts quality pistols that can mount a red-dot sight?    Thanks for helping to keep my good wife enjoying shooting.
    Mac - still snow bound

I shoot 3.3 gr BE with Magnus 200 gr LSWC for 25 yds. It will one hole them! Recoil is extremely light and pleasant to shoot. Excellent for a woman. I'm using slide mounted scope on 6" longslide. I'll be trying same load on a new pistol this weekend. I use non-sorted cases and only make sure crimp is .469". Runs like a champ. So really no special preparation required and getting match quality out to 25 yds. 9mm requires a ton more work to get to shoot well at standard velocities let alone reduced. 45 is hands down winner too me!
Jon

Mac, let me introduce myself.  LOL  I don't understand the problem you had with my web site.  The only time a user name and password should be required is if you're making a purchase in the store.  I'll look into that.  If you'd like to give me a call please do, I'll be more than happy to answer your questions.  Here is a pic of the latest wad gun I just completed.

And I think I now know what your problem is with the site.  Working on getting it usable in Microsoft Edge.  Not there yet.  If you use Chrome, IE etc. you should be able to get in without any problems.

kc.crawford.7 wrote:And I think I now know what your problem is with the site.  Working on getting it usable in Microsoft Edge.  Not there yet.  If you use Chrome, IE etc. you should be able to get in without any problems.

Tried both Chrome and Firefox (Windows 10) login screen comes up and says it's taking me to the development site.  Still in development mode??

- Dave

Mac2
Here is a link to a photo on KC's Facebook Page  <=== click to get to KC's page




- Dave

Dear KC and helpers:    I found an E-mail address for KC and sent him a detailed message by E-mail.
I have yet to see if using a different program will get me to his WEB site.

I may well have guessed wrong about 9mm being better for my wife than 45ACP.   . . .learning curve!

Many thanks to all,    Mac

Only APPLE can access it now!

What ever the issue might have been, it seems to have gone away.
www.KCsKustomCreations.com

Seems to work. 
I am most favorably impressed with KC's work crafting pistols for Bullseye as reflected in his client's endorsements. 
Mac

dronning wrote:

Mac2 wrote:[Dave:  tell more about "KC Built" 1911 - Red-dot mounted?]

My buddy Mark and I each ordered a 9MM from KC about the same time.  Mark had slide mounted optics and I went with the Red Buff frame mount.  Mark went with a crisp trigger I went with one of KC's roll triggers.  Both have 1-32 twist KKM .355 barrels.  Both can shoot Atlantic Arms 115gr JHP <1.5" (10 shot groups 50yds).  I have at least 5 groups < 1" using HAP or XTP bullets all the HAP groups have been around 1.25".  Of 50 HAP rounds shot on RR I had 2 flyers (out 1/2") which I'm pretty sure were operator error those 2 groups were still under 2".

Sorry for the poor quality photo and the ugly SkarkSkin grips.

The 9 is in the middle.  The 45 on the right came up for sale on TargetTalk after the owner couldn't shoot any more due to an injury.  I love the 9mm so much I just couldn't pass it up.  The 9mm has been updated with a standard length trigger since this photo.  The Nelson is on a Les Baer lower and has one of KC's drop in roll triggers too.

Dave:   Your recommendation has a heavy weight.  Use a slow twist in 9mm and load right up to speed-of-sound.    What are the red-dots that are being used? 
Any other suggestions about what can be done to improve 9mm for Bullseye?  Thanks,    Mac

Mac

My 9MM with the 1-32 twist needs to run at 1100fps any slower and the groups really start to open up and you have to run either JHP or FMJ (jacketed ammo).  I used Atlanta Arms match ammo as my base for load development because that is what the AMU uses.  Dots are 2 different models of Ultradots, the one on the 22 is an HD-Micro the other two are Matchdot II.  The 9mm in the center has the tube extension on it.  The HD-micro has a fixed size 2 MOA dot, the Matchdot II the dot size can be adjusted from 2-8 MOA.  I use a 2 MOA dot on all guns.

- Dave

Everyone has different goals:
I have the 9MM because I wanted to be able to shoot 3 guns in a 2700 match.  BUT I really believe you should stick with the 22 & 45 if you want to improve rapidly.  As stated earlier the 45 is mandatory, you have to learn to shoot it well.  If your 22 scores are 50-100 points higher than your 45 scores then you need to verify the accuracy of the gun/ammo, if OK then you just need to dry fire more*, and spend some more time with that big boy so you can shoot it like your 22.  When you look at the scores of the top shooters very often their 45 scores will beat their 22 scores.

*Dry fire, the more you dry fire correctly I really believe the less it matters what gun you have in your hand.

dronning wrote:Mac

My 9MM with the 1-32 twist needs to run at 1100fps any slower and the groups really start to open up and you have to run either JHP or FMJ (jacketed ammo).  I used Atlanta Arms match ammo as my base for load development because that is what the AMU uses.  Dots are 2 different models of Ultradots, the one on the 22 is an HD-Micro the other two are Matchdot II.  The 9mm in the center has the tube extension on it.  The HD-micro has a fixed size 2 MOA dot, the Matchdot II the dot size can be adjusted from 2-8 MOA.  I use a 2 MOA dot on all guns.

- Dave

Everyone has different goals:
I have the 9MM because I wanted to be able to shoot 3 guns in a 2700 match.  BUT I really believe you should stick with the 22 & 45 if you want to improve rapidly.  As stated earlier the 45 is mandatory, you have to learn to shoot it well.  If your 22 scores are 50-100 points higher than your 45 scores then you need to verify the accuracy of the gun/ammo, if OK then you just need to dry fire more*, and spend some more time with that big boy so you can shoot it like your 22.  When you look at the scores of the top shooters very often their 45 scores will beat their 22 scores.

*Dry fire, the more you dry fire correctly I really believe the less it matters what gun you have in your hand.

Dear Dave:   You have been of critical assistance.  Thank you.  KC and I are in the process of getting on his list for the crafting of a Bullseye 9mm for my wife to use along the lines of what you have had success with.  We are unlikely to compete in tournaments where 45ACP is required - or if we do, we will just shoot the 22 and CF matches.  We are both much too old to have visions of more than having fun shooting together and of attempting to perform a little better with practice.  Fortunately, left from my days competing with rifle, we have our own outdoor range (metal targets at 25 and 50 yards) and an indoor range only a few miles away.  Again, building on your experience with slow-twist 9mm and with KC crafting a better fitting pistol, my wife should have an even more enjoyable time shooting.  In addition to fit (with its many components), having a red-dot sight as low as possible is critical for recovery at 25 yards and for enhancing a natural-point-of-aim.  RO with its high mounted sight is not optimum and even with Ultradots re-acquisition of sight-picture can be delayed.
KC appears to favor the H-1 sight, which I know little about.   You and others here have been a big help.  Mac

Mac2 whatever you decide to have KC build for you it will be top notch.  I've always like frame mounts until I saw KC's slide cut mount.  I were to start from scratch I'd have KC build a slide cut type mount with the H1 on top.  A friend just had KC build him one in 45, it's awesome!

Just remember one thing we need to see pictures when it's done!

- Dave

dronning wrote:Mac2 whatever you decide to have KC build for you it will be top notch.  I've always like frame mounts until I saw KC's slide cut mount.  I were to start from scratch I'd have KC build a slide cut type mount with the H1 on top.  A friend just had KC build him one in 45, it's awesome!

Just remember one thing we need to see pictures when it's done!

- Dave

Dear Dave and other helpers:   Indeed, the more KC and I discussed the need for faster recovery on the short line (the high red-dot on the RO is not optimum for my wife), plus a desire for a more natural holding of the pistol even on the long line, the slide mount won-out.  Because I noted to KC that my wife has expressed a concern with adding mass to the slide and a resulting complication of the dynamics (crafting a good round), he assured me that the total, resulting mass would be similar and that he was thinking of additional ways to mitigate the issues.  Big, burlly men have different issues.  It was comforting to communicate with a craftsman who is sensitive to the fact that people are different. 

Hope is expressed for a glorious Christmas present and I will endeavor to learn the mysteries of picture posting by then.  However, again I note that over a long life in the company of people, and several supurb ugly rifles, appearance is rather unimportant - performance counts.  Thanks again,   Mac