Awards System Changes at Nationals

First topic message reminder :

Good morning everyone.  Ever changing IRS regulations and our inability to track everything in the past has resulted in the following policy for awards at Camp Perry.


Due to ever changing IRS regulations and the need for the NRA to be in 100% compliance, there will be some changes made in the awards process at the following NRA championships beginning in 2016; the Bianchi Cup, the National Matches at Camp Perry, the Smallbore Championships in Bristol, IN, the Silhouette Championships, the Black Powder Championships, and the World Shooting Championship.
Let’s start with the basics.  Awards are varied but generally consist of Award Points, Visa gift cards, donated merchandise, checks, trophies, plaques and medals.  Non-taxable items are trophies, plaques and medals.
Beginning in 2016, Visa gift cards will be eliminated and checks will be issued to the winner instead.  Those checks will be sent from NRA Headquarters and will not be available at the championship.
Still available at the National Championship will be Award Points, donated merchandise, trophies, plaques, and medals.
All awards must be picked up at the awards office prior to leaving the championship.  The last day available to pick up awards will be the last day of the championship.  Only checks will be mailed.  All unclaimed items will become property of the NRA.
In order to claim awards the competitor must have a “verified” W9 on file.  What is a “verified” W9?  It is one that has been run through IRS files to verify that the information on the form is correct.  If the W9 cannot be “verified”, no awards will be issued, including any checks from NRA Headquarters.
Upon arrival at each championship you will be asked to complete a W9.  We will request that the information on the W9 be verified.  Once the information on the W9 is verified as accurate, the computer system will be updated with the information that the verification process is complete and awards will be issued as they become available.  Sensitive information on the W9 will not be entered into the computer.
Because there is a time delay between completing the W9 and getting it properly verified, any delay on your part in completing this form will result in an additional delay in your ability to receive an award.  Wait too long and it might not be possible to verify the W9 before the championship ends.
The Competitive Shooting Division recommends that competitors complete a W9 during the registration process.  This will provide sufficient time for the verification process and allow awards to be issued in a timely manner.
As has always been the policy, unused W9s are securely destroyed at the end of the calendar year.

Dennis L. Willing
Director,
NRA Competitive Shooting Division

Didn't this thread start as Wobbley mentions above? An ADDITION to the Nationals. Later the idea of changing came up. As John, Rob, and others have posited changes are not needed only possibly spectator attractive additions. Certainly not making the Nationals an invitational.

Ron Habegger

This thread started as a discussion of the awards requirements for the IRS compliance.  It only diverged when sponsorships and perhaps making the event photogenic (sorry about the hijack).  

But the Nationals could be improved by adding an Xteam event and perhaps a cutoff to compete for the prizes like some golf tournaments.

So where would one fill out this W9 form? I can't find it on the website and nothing was offered when I registered.

DirComp wrote:There are a couple of things that I've looked at to change the pace.  First, the Nationals could become an invitational.  You would earn a place at the Nationals based on performance at local, regional, and stat championships.  It would make the Nationals more prestigious, would increase attendance at the lower levels, and it would be a source of pride just to receive that invite.  No classes excluded.

The second item, is a just for fun item, and it's a team match.  All two-person teams.  Anyone wishing to participate lets the stat office know.  The Stat Office makes the pairings.  High Masters are paired with Marksman, Masters are paired with Sharpshooters, and Experts are paired with Experts.  There is only one class and that's Expert.  This could be extended to 4 person teams if desired.

Denny

I'm surprised more shooters haven't replied to this.  An "invitational" Nationals?  I can't fathom how anyone would consider this even remotely positive, especially in the same post as a potentially fun and interesting team match idea.  Maybe it's just me but I trust the NRA about as much as I trust the government.  "We do it for you," they say.  "It will be better," they claim.  The reason I'm not an NRA life member is because every once in awhile, after they've done something completely idiotic, I like to quit just out of principle.

Of course I always see the error of my ways and understand that the NRA is a political machine that is single minded in it's mission to protect our 2nd Amendment - but that's what it is.  A political organization.  And an "invitational" Nationals would be a political event.  Publicly speak out against the NRA or one of it's decisions, no invite for you.  Question the edicts, processes, or policies, no invite for you.  And that's just the political side of things.  You didn't receive your invitation in the mail?  Sorry, file a complaint and maybe we'll correct it for next year.  Have we not seen decisions made and people chosen for or omitted from committees based on the NRA's political perspective and not the perspective of what's good for the shooters or the sport?  What makes an "invitational" Nationals any different?

If you work for a living and happen to travel often and see your family little, what happens when you don't get to shoot in enough local matches to earn your invitation?  What about the guys who shoot every weekend but just aren't that good or have disabilities that prevent them from scoring well enough for an invitation?  What about those of us who live in a state where the state association has knuckleheads for pistol chairs and it's like pulling teeth to even find out when or where regional or state matches are held?  I'm guessing the same NRA that calls me weekly asking for money but claims they don't have my email address to send me match information has us covered?  "We've got your back," they say as they sharpen the knife.

It might be interesting to hear whether an "invitational" Nationals would (or could) be an event small enough that it could take place at the new CMP range in Talladega.  Get the top 25 shooters from each classification together and have a one-day match on eTargets and call it a Nationals.  You're not one of the top 25 shooters, you say?  That's ok, enjoy your local range.  You won't need to take a week off of work, travel across the country, spend a week shooting with friends you only get to see once a year, and think of the money you'll save!  If you put it all in an envelope and mail it to yourself, you'll win more than you'd ever see in NRA bucks, anyhow!

Maybe I'm in the minority but the way I perceive things, the NRA is interested in what happens in Washington DC and not what happens on our pistol ranges.  There's a rich history in our sport and most of us desire to see it grow in number, grow in popularity, and receive the attention it deserves by national organizations like the NRA and CMP... or maybe something even better.  A wise man told me last weekend that what the sport really needs is a new governing body and a new, state of the art facility run by people who care about shooting sports.  Is there hope that such an opportunity will present itself in our lifetimes?

what the sport really needs is a new governing body and a new, state of the art facility run by people who care about shooting sports. Is there hope that such an opportunity will present itself in our lifetimes?

I'm not sure about a new governing body as I have high hopes for putting the sanctioning body that we already have on a better, smarter, more responsive trajectory.

As far as the new state of the art facility run by people who care about shooting sports? I believe we will have just that in Cardinal's new pistol facility. I hope to shoot my first match there this summer.

-Rob

Guys,

Please keep in mind when I throw something out to you like an invitational National Championship, it's actually to gauge your feeling about the topic.  Nothing that I tell you I've "thought about" is necessarily going to happen.  If you don't want an invitational that's fine with me.  It won't happen.

Also, please keep in mind that I have to be constantly looking out for something that works with the sport to make things better.  I don't profess to have all the great ideas, but I do have the authority to implement them.

The current state of the program is pretty much how it existed in 1980.  Since then we have lost about 50% of the competitors in Precision.  What we are doing no longer seems to work.  So it appears that there might be two options; change things to make it better, or let it die a natural death.  I prefer the first option so I am always on the lookout for things we can do to improve.

We have a new brochure under development and I have contracted for a company to do some short videos of each sport that can be used on websites, YouTube, etc., to advertise our sports.  They will be doing some filming at Camp Perry this summer.

Here is another item.  At the Bianchi Cup this year we are implementing a shoot-off for the championship.  36 of the top competitors will shoot once more through the course of fire for the champion titles that are awarded.  Their scores will consist of the scores from the fist time through the course (qualifying round) added to their score from the final round (championship round).  High aggregates win.

Would this work to spice up Precision?

Rob, I have high hopes for Cardinal, too.  I had the opportunity to drive by the construction there a few weeks ago and it's impressive and massive.  The question I have is whether our sport will get a premier position to compete at that facility or whether we'll be relegated to a smaller, more inferior locale because our sanctioning body has a superiority complex.

I'm guessing the guys in charge at Cardinal will be looking for groups and organizations who will make the best use of the facility and investment.  I haven't seen any announcements from the NRA that they're planning on taking advantage, have you?

Here is another item.  At the Bianchi Cup this year we are implementing a shoot-off for the championship.  36 of the top competitors will shoot once more through the course of fire for the champion titles that are awarded.  Their scores will consist of the scores from the fist time through the course (qualifying round) added to their score from the final round (championship round).  High aggregates win.

Would this work to spice up Precision?

I don't think so.  Because our Nationals are a series of matches, We know as each day goes on who the championship leaders are.

What would be cool is a real time leaderboard for those top competitors.  It can be "unofficial" until the challenge period is over, but it would give people something to watch and pay attention to other than standing at the scoresheets with a flashlight to figure out what is going on hours later.

I'm guessing the guys in charge at Cardinal will be looking for groups and organizations who will make the best use of the facility and investment. I haven't seen any announcements from the NRA that they're planning on taking advantage, have you?

NRA isn't in any position to make any decisions or even telegraph any decisions about Cardinal until they complete construction and conduct a match to prove they can effectively host a match. Give it time.

Any premature actions by NRA would put our National Championship in a precarious position....We need to stay friendly with ONG, Camp Perry, and CMP as long as they are our hosts for the National Pistol Championships, and hopefully remain friendly even if it turns out that Cardinal is the best location for future National Pistol Championships.

What you describe is similar to the World Trapshooting Championships, where at the end of the day, all the high scores gather to shoot off, for hours and hours, and days and days.

I'd have to think it thru to figure out how it would work for Precision.

A professional filming crew, this can mean only one thing...

Someone is going to fall in the mud this year for sure!!!

How it would work would have to be similar to golf.  But instead of JUST the high shooters, I think it should be also the high in each class and category (service and civilian).  Call it a cut., and after that each person shoots on the same relay.  High agg wins.  The qualifying is done at Perry.  Everyone could have a leaderboard. All it would take is one day as it would be a 22 and 45 match.

None of these ideas are sound.  Funding any extra range time and vacation time is just not there.

Rob Kovach wrote:NRA isn't in any position to make any decisions or even telegraph any decisions about Cardinal until they complete construction and conduct a match to prove they can effectively host a match. Give it time.

Any premature actions by NRA would put our National Championship in a precarious position....We need to stay friendly with ONG, Camp Perry, and CMP as long as they are our hosts for the National Pistol Championships, and hopefully remain friendly even if it turns out that Cardinal is the best location for future National Pistol Championships.

Rob, from a practicality and business standpoint I have to disagree.  Someone is obviously investing millions of dollars into a state-of-the-art facility at Cardinal.  If it were my money (it's not, I don't have any ), I'd want committed users and committed organizations to be sure the investment is worthwhile and financially sound.  Think in terms of a new football or baseball stadium... a 'build it and see what happens' perspective isn't likely one that someone with deep pockets finds useful.  How many major league baseball teams say, "Hey look, they just built a new stadium in Savannah, Georgia.  Maybe we should move our team there?"  The commitment needs to come alongside of the construction in my opinion.

If I were in charge of running a National Championship, I'd approach a place like Cardinal and say - "Here is what I bring to the table, here are my requirements, and here is what I expect your facility to be able to provide by this date.  If you are able to comply, I commit to holding my next 10 National Championships at your facility starting in July of 2017."  If that conversation isn't happening with the NRA for Precision Pistol, it's likely happening with some other organization.  As we're all well aware, Precision Pistol isn't the only pistol game in town.  From the drive through Cardinal a few weeks ago, it appears the action pistol area is getting all of the love initially.  I certainly hope that turning targets and a bunch of 50 yard firing points are in the works.  If the competition folks from the NRA aren't knocking the doors down, they'll probably be lucky to land a January slot at the new range.

I could be completely wrong, I'm just a simple guy who works all week and likes to shoot a bit.  If I were pushing dirt and buying diesel fuel to build a new shooting range, I'd be looking for committed users to make my investment pay off.

Trent,
Thankfully, Cardinal is building this state of the art facility without any public commitment from anyone for matches.  This isn't unheard of in our sport.  Most clubs operate matches with no assistance from NRA or anyone else.

I'm fairly certain that Cardinal figures that they can attract enough competitors for matches that they conduct to justify the expense.  To them, the possibility of securing the National Pistol Matches would be a bonus.

You may be correct but fiscally I'd bet on there being commitments.  Just my humble opinion but if I'm shelling out the bucks to build, I'm having conversations with any and all who will commit to using the facility.

The Scholastic Shooting Sports Foundation and Cardinal have announced their National Championships will occur July 9-16, 2016.  This happens to overlap with our National Championship... call me crazy but I'll bet they have more competitors and spend more money than we do.  I'm not too familiar with their organization but their last National Championship had about twice the number of competitors as we have seen the last few years.  Add to that the parents, grandparents, etc....

Trent,
2016's National Pistol Championships are at Camp Perry this year, so you don't need to worry about a 2016 scheduling conflict with a range at Cardinal that isn't even built yet.

Cardinal doesn't need the Nationals in order to have huge bullseye matches...whether there is an agreement or not. Arguing about whether there is an agreement or not isn't really relevant to anyone other than NRA and Cardinal, (and maybe CMP and Ohio National Guard).

Regardless if there are commitments, I can bet that they won't be public until AFTER Cardinal's pistol facilities are up and running.

The discussion surrounding a national invitational was never intended to replace the national championship; it was intended to augment the existing national championship with something telegenic for frequent and accomplished competitors without impacting the historic integrity of the national championship itself.

Somewhere along the way this was misinterpreted and it obtained a life of its own.

DirComp wrote:
The current state of the program is pretty much how it existed in 1980.  Since then we have lost about 50% of the competitors in Precision.  What we are doing no longer seems to work.  So it appears that there might be two options; change things to make it better, or let it die a natural death.  I prefer the first option so I am always on the lookout for things we can do to improve.

OK, if I can jump in as a new guy batting cleanup down in the cheap seats of the score ranking....  I gotta think a lot of the drop if just from the fact that there is not as much local matches..  Back in the 70's when my dad was shooting, there were a ton of local matches within a hour drive throughout the summer, and indoor matches in the winter...  Now there is really only a handful of NRA matches within a 3 hour drive of me. Maybe some areas of the country are different.. But here its really dry. Because of things with work, and family, Ill be lucky to hit one match this year.

That's a huge part of it.  I was on the board of a local gun club some years ago and the range had a request to put in turning targets so we could start bullseye matches.  The board wanted to see how much interest there would be.  Out of over 2000 members we had maybe 30 show enough interest.  We did build the turning target system and matches are held regularly, but the low interest level was astonishing.  

I bet the turning target systems in most of these old clubs are unusable or have been removed.  

The vast majority of pistol shooters are plinkers and casual target shooters.  They just load up their guns and shoot.  At any indoor range most targets sold are the silhouette variety.  More are the Bianchi/Combat types.  Few are precision shooters.

KelseyECS wrote:The discussion surrounding a national invitational was never intended to replace the national championship; it was intended to augment the existing national championship with something telegenic for frequent and accomplished competitors without impacting the historic integrity of the national championship itself.

Somewhere along the way this was misinterpreted and it obtained a life of its own.

DirComp wrote:There are a couple of things that I've looked at to change the pace.  First, the Nationals could become an invitational.  You would earn a place at the Nationals based on performance at local, regional, and stat championships.  It would make the Nationals more prestigious, would increase attendance at the lower levels, and it would be a source of pride just to receive that invite.  No classes excluded.

The second item, is a just for fun item, and it's a team match.  All two-person teams.  Anyone wishing to participate lets the stat office know.  The Stat Office makes the pairings.  High Masters are paired with Marksman, Masters are paired with Sharpshooters, and Experts are paired with Experts.  There is only one class and that's Expert.  This could be extended to 4 person teams if desired.

Denny

I think maybe you misinterpreted... "become" is the key word.  Bad idea, really bad.  I'm just one guy with one opinion but I didn't read the suggestion as an augmentation.

Wobbley wrote:That's a huge part of it. ....  Out of over 2000 members we had maybe 30 show enough interest.  We did build the turning target system and matches are held regularly, but the low interest level was astonishing.  

+1
There is a large Club 60 miles from me that has a 20 lane turning target system sitting idle because no club member wants to be in charge even though State Pistol committee members would do most of the match day work.  I am lucky there is a club 15 minutes away that has 8-10 matches every summer.

- Dave

Rob Kovach wrote:Trent,
2016's National Pistol Championships are at Camp Perry this year, so you don't need to worry about a 2016 scheduling conflict with a range at Cardinal that isn't even built yet.

Cardinal doesn't need the Nationals in order to have huge bullseye matches...whether there is an agreement or not.  Arguing about whether there is an agreement or not isn't really relevant to anyone other than NRA and Cardinal, (and maybe CMP and Ohio National Guard).

Regardless if there are commitments, I can bet that they won't be public until AFTER Cardinal's pistol facilities are up and running.

Rob, my intent isn't to argue but to point out that if large organizations are scheduling their large matches and national championships, they're likely not doing it for a single season.  These organizations are likely going to have their choice of time slots if they're first in line and committed to long term use... personally, I'd like to hear whether our sport is interested in taking advantage of this opportunity.  That's just me.  I love Camp Perry but hate the fact that there are so few places to stay on-site unless you're fond of sharing sleeping quarters with people you don't know.  I've met some good folks in the barracks over the years but frankly I'd like to have a few more cost effective options...

Having been reading these forums for a few years and keeping my opinions to myself, I've seen things written that describe the state of the mechanicals at Camp Perry as dismal or unable to be repaired, I've read about electronic targets saving the sport, and this week I read about an idea to replace the open Nationals with an invitational.  I had to register an account and vent a bit.  I don't have a lot of faith in those steering the boat.

The best thing about the way matches are hosted in our sport is, except for Camp Perry, the hosting club really doesn't need any sanctioning body to conduct a match and collect entry fees. It's their range and facility. They can conduct matches as frequently as they wish.

Rob Kovach wrote:The best thing about the way matches are hosted in our sport is, except for Camp Perry, the hosting club really doesn't need any sanctioning body to conduct a match and collect entry fees.  It's their range and facility.  They can conduct matches as frequently as they wish.

Amen.  And here's to more host clubs conducting more matches across this great nation.  I love to shoot and really enjoy applying that affection to a competitive event.  If only I could figure out a way to do it for a living instead of having to earn a living in order to do it!